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hi i just googled herbert harrison and this is what came up on another family tree website

Herbert Harrison (b. Abt. 1890, d. Abt. 1960)
Herbert Harrison (son of Thomas Harrison and Sarah) was born Abt. 1890 in Harthill, Sheffield, Yorkshire, England, and died Abt. 1960. He married Gertrude Fanny Linley.

More About Herbert Harrison:
Fact 1: Born at Greystock Street, Sheffield..
Fact 2: Went to Harthill Council School.
Fact 3: Was a miner @ Kiverton Park Colliery.
Fact 4: Trainer of Harthill Football Club.

Children of Herbert Harrison and Gertrude Fanny Linley are:

1. Joyce Harrison.
2. J Harrison.
3. D Harrison.
4. W Harrison.
5. G Harrison.
6. B Harrison.
7. A Harrison.
8. J Harrison.
9. Grace Harrison, b. 30 May 1920, Anston, Yorkshire, England d. 23 Oct 1978, Lytham St. Annes, Lancashire, England

as you can see in the list of children there is a b harrison ? maybe its not brian but something else begining with b ?

There's just no trace of him that I can see -- and almost all the other children didn't have middle names, and I don't see a Harrison-Linley birth with middle initial B. Odd one.

Don't forget to do the tree searches here. You may find someone who knows something. And cross your fingers for what your cousin learns.

HI I HAVE ONLY JUST FOUND MY COUSIN ON FACEBOOK AND ASKED HIM HE IS GOING TO TALK TO NAN AND SEE WHAT SHE CAN FIND OUT ABOUT THE FAMILY, ALSO I FOUND JEAN ON FREEBMD SHE WAS BORN IN JUNE 1941.
I REALLY APPRECIATE ALL YOUR HELP AND AM NOW TRYING TO FIND BRIAN AND AM WONDERING IF THIS COULD BE SPELT DIFFERENTLY OR BE HIS MIDDLE NAME INSTED
THANK YOU TO BOTH JANEY AND MEG I WILL KEPP YOU POSTED NOW ALL I HAVE TO DO IS FIND THE REST OF MY FAMILY (WILLIAM HEDLEY BOOTH AND ALICE MAY CAUSLEY AND WALTER AND LAURA FAXON

Just to add, Janey says it's impossible on Genes to show two siblings marrying the same wife/husband. On FTM it is possible to easily record two brothers marrying two sisters. I have it happening FOUR times in my family. I am not selling FTM, my version is 2004 I think.

So, Claire, you are saying that Gertrude Fanny (Frances) and Ethel May were sisters? If so I endorse the suggestion that you should get their two marriage certificate to Herbert Harrison, as your mum may not have the right story. We want them to have the same fathers, with the same occupation. It is worth checking as they don't appear on any census together.

And you already knew that, or have just checked with your mum?

It would have saved a lot of my time if I had known we were looking for two sisters, instead of me homing in on Stanley and whoever it was. Thank goodness that Ms Canuck didn't accept what I had found - but I did find a lot of kids with mmn Linley and it took me about 3 hours to find. That long list of children was vital. Incidentally for anyone to wonder how I found them, I picked on what I thought were the more obscure/modern names, so Brian and Alan were favourites. Didn't work at all. I found it via Marie. I imagined loads of Maries being born, but only about 8.

Before anyone says it's easy, yep, easy if you know in advance that mmn is Linley.And even easier if you know he married two Linleys.

Claire, tell me where you found Jean.

Good luck with finding any deaths amongst the children.

Come back if you want more help.

And a tip for next time -- ask the people who know *first*!

With that info from your cousin, we could have directed our search a little better.

Not that it isn't always nice to start from zero and demonstrate how scathingly brilliant we are by being proved right. ;)

You can look for deaths in infancy or early childhood at FreeBMD. After 1911, death records give the age at death, so if any of the children did die young, you will be able to identify them. I don't think Meg or I had done that search yet.

I have a family like this, a century earlier. My grx3 grandfather Samuel was married first to Elizabeth, who died. The first husband of Elizabeth's sister Sarai also died. So Samuel and Sarai, um, shacked up. ;) Back in those days, it was illegal for a man to marry his deceased wife's sister -- I guess they thought it would deter hanky-panky and murder! (I assume it worked the other way too.) I come from the second "marriage".

It simplifies the family tree, anyhow, when someone's two spouses were siblings. ;)

(Actually, it's impossible to show that in trees here at GR -- just in case you try. The two spouses end up on two separate trees; you can't show one person marrying two people who are siblings. So it's easiest just to show each of the women as married to Herbert Harrison, and attach his ancestors only to one HH -- just make a note on the other one that he's the same one.)

thanks janey it does look like we have the right people and i managed to get in touch with my cousin who said joyce's mum died when she was young and she gre up with heraunty who married her dad so its all starting to fit i found jeans birth im now trying to find brian and work out who john born 1918 and lillian were and if they died young
thanks for all your help
claire

Okay, here is Gertrude Fanny Linley (Coupe, Harrison) in 1901.


Name: Gertrude Linley
Age: 9
Estimated birth year: abt 1892
Relation: Daughter
Father's Name: John
Mother's Name: Charlotte
Where born: Sandall, Yorkshire, England

Civil parish: Whitwell
Town: Whitwell
County/Island: Derbyshire

John Linley 37
Charlotte Linley 34
James Linley 13
John Linley 11
Gertrude Linley 9
Mary Linley 4
Albertha Linley 3
Ernest Linley 1


We know this because the rest of the family -- John and Charlotte with James, Mary Elebeteh (as transcribed), Alberta and Ernest -- are living in Worksop in 1911.

No Ethel in the household in 1911.

But now we're pretty sure that Gertrude was Joyce's mother, so this is our real trail anyway. We're just madly curious about Ethel. ;)

Oops -- yes, MM, red herring -- but I'd bet you're right and they're related somehow. The Harrison-Linley web seems to be a complicated one. ;)

So I think the late births in Rotherham are probably a false trail too? Belonging to Sidney and Nellie, who may or may not be related here.

Claire -- let us know what he thinks!

I've actually already been in touch with a couple of the people who have Worksop Coupes in their trees. One was about something irrelevant and I don't want to ever have anything more to do with her! One was about when I was helping a third party ...

Did I mention my family is from Worksop? ;) Well, not exactly; my grandmother's uncle moved to Worksop from Calverton, and owned the Gas Tavern on Canal Street there. My mum and I visited it (by then the Canal Pub) in 1994, and we gave them a WWI photograph of men in uniform posed outside the pub.

Okay, this tale gets complicated. ;)

A couple of years ago, I was helping somebody at the Devon family history board find out who her aunt had married in WWI, which I did, and then I volunteered to check at GR to see whether he was in anybody's tree. (He had been killed in the war, and her aunt died not long after. She wanted to share the wedding photos with any living family). One of the people who did have him in her tree here turned out to be ... his granddaughter. He'd had a child with someone else before marrying. She lives in Worksop.

So we were chatting, and she said she had a cousin in British Columbia. I'm in Canada, but I've never been to BC. ;) But I said I'd visited Worksop, and a cousin there, the granddaughter of that pub owner, had recently contacted me through Ancestry.

And she said ...

I cant believe what you have just said about XXX family
My friend AAA XXX BBB I think has been in touch with you she has told me about you and about Calverton

So talk about yer small worlds. ;)

But anyhow, she isn't the one with Cissie Coupe in her tree. I did get a reply from the one who has her, but she never got beyond the "request to view tree" and "tree access granted" even though I explained we weren't related, so I don't know any more.

But I just had to say: small world. I don't doubt that I had a beer in the same place as Linleys and Coupes and likely Harrisons did on occasion!

thats great info thanks i am going to try and get in touch with my dad we havent spoken for a while and see if he will tell me anything but it looks like we have the right person
thank you to all of you for your help will let you know what dad says
claire

I am still not with it Janey. So is the marriage of Sidney Harrison and Nellie Linley a complete red herring?

EDIT maybe another brother/sister marriag- I have four of them.

I beat you with it, by seconds. ;)

I'm wondering whether the question is: Does Claire want to trace living family in England? There were a lot of kids, so there may be a lot of cousins!

As a matter of fact, just for starters, two people have Cissie Coupe 1914 in their trees here at GR.

I'm waiting breathlessly for you to put all that into plain Canadian for me. I can't cope!

Well!

Gertrude Fanny Linley was born 1891 in Doncaster.
Ethel May Linley was born 1907 in Worksop.

I can't find Gertrude in the 1901 census.
I can't find Ethel in the 1911 census.

By 1911, Gertrude was married to James William Coupe and living with him and their son (born before they were married).

So we can't look for Ethel and Gertrude together in 1901 (Ethel wasn't born) or in 1911 (Gertrude was married).

Gertrude had one more child with James William Coupe -- Cissie, in 1914. She married in 1938. Son William Coupe Linley was born in 1909, but I don't find him dying or marrying under that name. Perhaps he adopted Coupe, or Harrison?

James William Coupe was killed in WWI, in early 1916.

Gertrude Fanny Linley Coupe married Herbert Harrison in 1918.

I will assume that all the children born before Gertrude died were her children with Herbert:

Births Dec 1918
Harrison John E Linley Worksop 7b 69
Births Jun 1920
Harrison Grace Linley Worksop 7b 180
Births Sep 1922
Harrison Joyce Linley Worksop 7b 76
Births Dec 1924
Harrison Lilian Linley Worksop 7b 78

Gertrude died in early 1926.

Herbert Harrison married Ethel May Linley in late 1926.

The children born after that would be Ethel's children. (I won't repeat their details, particularly since I'm concerned that they may still be living -- we should delete some of this once Claire has it all recorded.)

Was Ethel a younger sister of Gertrude? Or a cousin? It's even possible she was a daughter -- more than 16 years between them.

We know nothing yet about Herbert Harrison.


Since we pretty clearly have the right family -- the children Madmeg found match Claire's names, and the marriage I found matches Claire's names -- I think Claire should order

- the Herbert Harrison + Gertrude Coupe marriage certificate
- the Herbert Harrison + Ethel Linley marriage certificate

This will give you, about Herbert:
- his age at the times of the marriages
- his father's name
and with this his family can be traced back.

And for Ethel and Gertrude, it will give you the same information, and should explain what their relationship was, or wasn't -- depending on whether they had the same father -- and hopefully make it possible to find their family/families too.


How's that then? ;)

Yeah, Janey, sorry about the living people, but I got carried away, and it seemed to fit the bill. Difficult to know how cautious to be when it's all available online anyway.

I need a chill pill, which is what I am told is the modern equivalent of cannabis or similar.

It took me about three hours to find all those kids in Worksop, like it does.

I thought I had it sussed and then Janey Canuck comes along with an alternative, and, as usual, sorts it all out.

I am gobsmacked.

Janey, please do a summary - for me.

I'll get in touch with Claire.

Margaret

Births Jun 1891
Linley Gertrude Fanny Doncaster 9c 849

Births Dec 1907
LINLEY Ethel May Worksop 7b 57


1911

COUPE GERTRUDE 1892 19 Worksop Nottinghamshire
COUPE WILLIAM 1888 23
LINLEY WILLIAM COUPE 1910 1


I'm not finding Ethel.



edit -- I'm waiting breathelessly for Claire to have a look -- if you find it hard to follow at all, just say and we can give the abridged version. ;)

Some certificates are still needed before delving farther back into the past, just to make sure you're on the right track, and we can advise about the most economical way to do that.

I'd been fixing to say that I thought Joyce was probably a fair bit younger than we were assuming, given the date of her marriage and children's births, so Herbert and Ethel? may well have been younger as well.

Claire, you gotta start with Joyce's marriage certificate to confirm her father's name.

If it's Sidney, then you're on your way.


MM, we're getting up into probably living people with some of those births there -- in fact, as I understand it, Joyce herself is still living? So some of this is a bit touchy ...

Given that at least one birth is before the date of the marriage, it would seem that Sidney or Nellie had been married before and wasn't free to marry until 1920, perhaps.

The Harrison-Linley marriage certificate will give his age (and father's name), which would be a guide for more searching.



edit >>> Look what I found.

Marriages Dec 1926
Harrison Herbert Linley Worksop 7b 117
Linley Ethel M Harrison Worksop 7b 117

Possibly a very short-lived first marriage? --

Marriages Jun 1918
Coupe Gertrude F Harrison Worksop 7b 77
Harrison Herbert Coupe Worksop 7b 77

There seem to be no children of that marriage.

This might be the first wife's death, leaving Herbert free to remarry later the same year.

Name: Gertrude F Harrison
Death Registration Month/Year: 1926 (first quarter)
Age at death (estimated): 34
Registration district: Sheffield
Inferred County: Yorkshire West Riding
Volume: 9c
Page: 570


edit again >>> oh my.

Marriages Mar 1910
? COUPE James William Worksop 7b 65
Dakin Sam Thomas W W Worksop 7b 65
HODGKISS Harriett Worksop 7b 65
? Linley Gertrude Fanny Worksop 7b 65


Gertrude F Coupe was born Linley? Presumably she was widowed (WWI?) and then married Herbert Harrison.

So in fact, there's a good chance that all of the Harrison-Linley children up to 1926 were Gertrude's children, and when Gertrude died, Sidney (who had a lot of young children) then married her sister?


Births Mar 1914
COUPE Cissie Linley Worksop 7b 128


Yup!

Name: COUPE, JAMES WILLIAM
Initials: J W
Nationality: United Kingdom
Rank: Private
Regiment/Service: Machine Gun Corps (Infantry)
Unit Text: 50th Coy.
Age: 28
Date of Death: 02/03/1916
Service No: 6156
Additional information:
Son of William Coupe, of Bondhay Cottages, Whitwell, Derbyshire;
>>> husband of Gertrude Fanny Harrison (formerly Coupe), of Fir Vale. Harthill, Sheffield.
Casualty Type: Commonwealth War Dead
Grave/Memorial Reference: Panel 56.
Memorial: YPRES (MENIN GATE) MEMORIAL

http://www.cwgc.org/search/casualty_details.aspx?casualty=1608049

By the time the memorial was written, Gertrude was married to Herbert Harrison and living in Sheffield, which is where she died in 1926.

There are all these children with the same mmn:

Births Dec 1918 (98%)
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------

Harrison John E Linley Worksop 7b 69

--------------------------------------------------------------------------------
Births Jun 1920 (>99%)
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Harrison Grace Linley Worksop 7b 180

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Births Sep 1922 (>99%)
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Harrison Joyce Linley Worksop 7b 76

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Births Dec 1924 (>99%)
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Harrison Lilian Linley Worksop 7b 78

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Births Mar 1927 (>99%)
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Harrison Alice Linley Worksop 7b 84

--------------------------------------------------------------------------------
Births Jun 1929 (>99%)
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Harrison Wilfred Linley Worksop 7b 84

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Births Mar 1931 (>99%)
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Harrison Ernest R Linley Worksop 7b 86

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Births Dec 1932 (98%)
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Harrison Ruth Linley Worksop 7b 70

And:


Births Sep 1935 (>99%)
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------

Harrison Marie Linley Rotherham 9c 939

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Births Jun 1937 (>99%)
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------

Harrison George Linley Rotherham 9c 975

England & Wales, Birth Index: 1916-2005
about Alan Harrison
Name: Alan Harrison
Mother's Maiden Surname: Linley
Date of Registration: Apr May Jun 1944
Registration district: Rother V
Registration county: Yorkshire
Volume Number: 9c
Page Number: 1370 (click to see others on page)

England & Wales, Birth Index: 1916-2005
about David Harrison
Name: David Harrison
Mother's Maiden Surname: Linley
Date of Registration: Oct Nov Dec 1938
Registration district: Rotherham
Registration county: Yorkshire
Volume Number: 9c
Page Number: 884 (click to see others on page)

So I'm just missing Brian and Jean.

And here's a marriage, not of Herbert and Ethel:

Marriages Jun 1920 (83%)
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------

Harrison Sidney Linley Rotherham 9c 1923
Linley Nellie Harrison Rotherham 9c 1923