Find Ancestors

I'm not sure she was ever a Roberts. I think the enumerator wrote Roberts because she was recorded as sister. There are too many Elizabeth Williams marrying male Roberts in Wrexham. I'm trying to find her & Catherine in 1861.

I'm also checking for Pamela's family in 1841 but they are being elusive.

Ozi

HI
I really appreciate your help and research on this. Summarising your messages then ...is the following feasible?

Pamela was born a Williams not a Downs....she then married and had Hugh whom she listed in 1871 as John Roberts aged 1mnth and herself as Pamilla Roberts aged 23, living with Elizabeth Roberts (aged 49).

You say the 1875 BMD records shows marriage details Allen Roberts, Pamela Williams, Elizabeth Evans, Thomas Francis - All saying Corwen. Is Corwen a town? Does this read as Pamela married a Thomas francis in 1875 or an Allen Roberts? (I am a tad confused att his point).

we then know then that by 1881 she was registered on the census as married to Thomas Francis and then the children begin (Joseph, Sarah, Catherine etc).

What do you think?

cheers

interesting...wonder if she made the Downs name up when she moved by 1901? or even re-married and her Husband died before my Nan was born? My Nan was born 1916 and only remembered her vaguely. It does seem uncanny that the Pamela Williams born in 1848 married a Thomas Francis...and thanks for the info on Hugh....again it is plausible that he wasn't Thomas's SOn but they just listed him as a Francis on the 1891 census for the sake of it.

Would they mistranscribe to read Roberts?
Again, excuse my ignorance on this subject : )

No, I have searched for Hugh but he just shows in the 1891 then none after..I had assumed he had left home by 1891 as he would have been c.30yrs....so I was curious to find him aged 10 in the 1871 census...maybe he was a ghost haha

Lorraine

Well for def there is a Pamela Downs born Ruabon, but not till 1851.

Looking on the North Wales BMD the ONLY Pamela that married a Thomas Francis is a WILLIAMS that marriage took place in Llangollen

Annx

I have a feeling this is Pamela & Hugh mistranscribed.


1871 Wales Census
Name: Pamilla Roberts
Age: 23
Estimated birth year: abt 1848
Relation: Sister
Gender: Female
Where born: Clenk Green, Denbighshire, Wales
Civil parish: Ruabon
Ecclesiastical parish: Rhosymedre
County/Island: Denbighshire
Country: Wales
Registration district: Wrexham
Sub-registration district: Ruabon
ED, institution, or vessel: 11
Household schedule number: 245
Household Members:
Name Age
Elizabeth Roberts 49 - widow; Cefn Mawr, Denbighshire
Catherine Roberts 14 - Llangollen, Denbighshire
Pamilla Roberts 23
John Roberts 1 month - Cefn Mawr, Denbighshire


Cefn Mawr is between Chirk and Ruabon, kind of. It's a little to the west.

Ages are very unreliable.

People bend the truth today, let alone in the past.

Also knowing your age wasn't so important. There was no welfare state; no pensions, no retirement age, etc. So no real need to know exactly when you were born.

Looks like Hugh might be her son, but not necessarily Thomas's.

Births Jun 1871
WILLIAMS Hugh Wrexham 11b 333

was it common to be around 3 years out with birth dates dating back to 1851 and onwards? by 1881 she was listed as 33 assuming the 1851 person is her?

thanks

Also, have you found Hugh in any other census?

Ozi

the 1891 census does show her as born in Chirk!!!!

I wonder if she was a Williams? It does sound feasble with the dates!
I get Downs from my Nan who says she used to remember her Nan as a little Welsh woman called Pamela Downs. It was her Dads Mum. Then I saw this on the 1901 census. She was living in Turner Street with my Great Grandfather, (Joseph Thomas) and it had to be them because my Nan had her Mums family living on Turner Street also and that is how the met and married in 1910.

I did wonder why her name was Downs in 1901 but had been francis in 1891 & 1881...I just assumed because in 1901 there was no trace of her Husband, she had taken her maiden name back? Wonder if it was something else?

Thank you

Lorraine,

Just to clarify and so we can help you further, where did you get the Downs surname from............how do you know your GG mother was a Downs?

Indeed there is a Pamela Downs birth in Ruabon 1851, as per my earlier post.

Annx

Chirk is only about 4 miles from Ruabon.

1851 Wales Census
Name: Pamela Williams
Age: 3
Estimated birth year: abt 1848
Relation: Daughter
Father's Name: John
Mother's Name: Ann
Gender: Female
Where born: Chirk, Denbighshire, Wales
Civil Parish or Township: Chirk
County/Island: Denbighshire
Country: Wales
Registration district: Oswestry
Sub-registration district: Knockin
ED, institution, or vessel: 6c
Household schedule number: 44
Household Members:
Name Age
John Williams 46
Ann Williams 38
Emanuel Williams 15
Noah Williams 6
Pamela Williams 3
Jonah Williams 1 6 Mo


Where did you get the surname Downs from?

thanks again, I do have these records you have listed and I do believe these are the correct ones for my family...so any ideas on how to work back now? I have hit the wall!

Cheers
Lorraine

Excuse my ignorance as I am new to all this. I only have her married to the one person which was Thomas Francis. He was born in the same place in Wales I believe. I do not know when she was married either. I just know the 1881 census shows them both as Francis.
I reckon their first child Mary Ellen was born around 1868 the their Son Hugh around 1871 and so on. I assume in 1871 they would be married?

I do not have any credits now as it was costing me a small fortune searching so at the moment, I am reliant on the free use of the Ancestry site at the local library.

Many thanks

For reference:

1881 Wales Census a
Name: Pamley Francis
Age: 33
Estimated birth year: abt 1848
Relation: Wife
Spouse's name: Thomas
Gender: Female
Where born: Ruabon, Denbighshire, Wales
Civil parish: Ruabon
County/Island: Denbighshire
Country: Wales
Street Address: 8 Thomas's Row
Condition as to marriage: Married
Education: View image
Employment status: View image
Registration district: Wrexham
Sub-registration district: Ruabon
ED, institution, or vessel: 21
Neighbors: View others on page
Household Members:
Name Age
Thomas Francis 37
Pamley Francis 33
Mary Ellen Francis 13
Amy Francis 3
Joseph Thomas Francis 1




1891 England Census
Name: Pamalar Francis
Age: 44
Estimated birth year: abt 1847
Relation: Wife
Spouse's name: Thomas
Gender: Female
Where born: Cherh Green, Shropshire, England [Chirk Green on image]
Civil parish: Tyldesley With Shakerley
Ecclesiastical parish: St George
Town: Tyldesley
County/Island: Lancashire
Country: England
Street Address:

Occupation:

Condition as to marriage:

Registration district: Leigh
Sub-registration district: Atherton
ED, institution, or vessel: 11
Neighbors: View others on page
Household Members:
Name Age
Thomas Francis 47
Pamalar Francis 44
Hugh Francis 20
Amy Francis 14
Joseph Thos Francis 11
Sarah Francis 8
Catherine Francis 6
Annie Francis 3
Walter Evans 30
Sarah Ann Reynolds 24

Where did you get the surname Downs from, a child's birth cert?

Births Mar 1848
WILLIAMS Pamela Wrexham 27 254

So she was married before?

Marriages Mar 1875
EVANS Elizabeth Corwen 11b 529
Francis Thomas Corwen 11b 529 <<<<<<<<<<
Roberts Allen Corwen 11b 529
WILLIAMS Pamela Corwen 11b 529 <<<<<<<<<<

I do have the birth year wrong, it will be c. 1848...sorry