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Ann, you mentioned a few days ago that the ONLY BMD listed for Pamela to a Thomas Francis was a Pam Williams in Llangollen, what year was this please?

x

Lorraine,

I have deleted my 2 deaths..........your postings you have to use the delete button yourself.

I have posted you the birth of the GRANDSON!

Not sure about the ROBERTS saga idea, am unable to get my head around that one!

Annx

Hiya Ann, thanks for putting up with me, I have only been in an hour from Wales and have got straight on the laptop so mixed the dates up in my excitement.
Yes delete my previous two questions please!

Yes, Mary ellen shows in 1881 Wales census aged 13, living with her parents Pamala (or Pamley as it is spelled) & Thomas Francis.
In the 1891 England census they have moved to Tyldesley with some additions to the family. However, Mary ellen is not there so we can assume she has married because she wuld be 23.
However, from the info from Ozi, in 1871 Wales, the only search on Pamela is a Pamilla Roberts aged 23 (right age she would have been) and she is listed as a Sister of the head of the household. What made Ozi think it was our Pamala Williams was because on 1861 there was a Nephew living with Pamala and her family, and he was Henry Roberts, so the link really is just the name. Ozi thought the baby aged 1mnth in 1871 listed with the Roberts family could have been Hugh....Simply named John to fit in with the household (because his age fits with Hugh aged 20)....and because Pamala was not married!

Sorry I am possibly confusing things more!

As for confirming the age of 9years, thank you, I will set about tracing this birth cert....you are right it is expensive but a lovely hobby....and made better when you get valuable help from you kind people!

: )

Warr Joseph Thomas Bolton 8c 357 1902

The grandsons birth

Right Lorraine, have got you now.........I think! I will delete the 2 deaths save confusing the issue.

So mary Ellen shows in 1881 but not in 1871 aged 3

Hugh is on the 1891 but not listed 1871

1861..........He's called John Roberts! (am a bit lost on that one as its one of Ozi's) and was not following the plot.

As well as the 1911 index i have looked at the original and the grandson is 9 years........the M means Male. We need to find his birth and you will have to send for the cert to determin his parents, it is not something you can take a guess at.........it is a expensive hobby genealogy!

Annx

Obviously I have to learn so how would I go about finding who the Grandson belonged to in 1911? does M 9 means nine months? If so, My Great Grandad, Joseph Thomas could have been the Father? I know he had 3 children in his 30's with Annie Morris, Joseph (1915), Catherine (1916) & Vernon, (1917 or 18) so I assumed these were the only children he ever had and that he was a "late starter" for those days...
Could he have had a child previously who did not survive as we have never heard of him or could he belong to one of Pamalas other children maybe?

: )

1911 census - household transcription
Person: DOWNS, Pamalar
Address: 367 Hindley Road Westhoughton

Cost:
You will be charged 10 credits for a transcript and 30 credits for an image, unless you have purchased a subscription for this set of records.


census search results 1911 address search redefine current search
Name Relation Condition/
Yrs married Sex Age Birth
Year Occupation Where Born Original
census
image

--------------------------------------------------------------------------------

DOWNS, Pamalar Head Married
37 years F 63 1848 Cherk Green North Wales VIEW
WARR, Joseph Thomas Grandson M 9 1902 Lancashire Westhoughton VIEW

--------------------------------------------------------------------------------

RG number:
RG14 Piece:
23345 Reference:
RG14PN23345 RG78PN1362 RD461 SD4 ED18 SN22

Registration District:
Bolton Sub District:
Horwich Enumeration District:
18 Parish:
Westhoughton

Address:
367 Hindley Road Westhoughton County:
Lancashire

On the original says married 37 years/ 7 children/ 5 living/ 2 deaths.
Place of birth Chirk Green? North Wales.

Annx

This seems to be a good bet. About the right age, and registered in Leigh. This is the same district that he was in for 1891 census and where Pamela married William Downs.

Deaths Dec 1894
Francis Thomas 52 Leigh 8c 181

Happy hunting,
Ozi

I knew I had seen William Downs somewhere before! I just looked at my print out of the 1891 census and William Downs lived on Turner St (where Pamalar moved to) with Wife Mary and Mary Taylor (lodger) and John Bond (Lodger)....so it seems that Pamalar married William 6yrs later...and you are right when you say in 1901, he was visitng a Daughter, Mary Taylor!

So I wonder when Thomas Francis died? He moved to Tyldesley by 1891 but it does not show him in 1901...he obviously died between 1891 & 1897 when she re-married...ooh this is exciting (for me anyway!)...thank you

Actually thinking about it, Joseph Thomas was born in the 1880's so would not have been 9 in 1902...wonder who that was then? As I say, I need to get on the 1911 census to see!

Blimey Ozi you have done more in a few hours than I could have possibly imagined! I spent two hours yesterday trying to find Pamala Downs in 1871 but to no avail (now we know why!).

I need to go on the 1911 census then and read what the WARR means against Josephs name (My great Granddad).

I cannot thank you enough for this, I really can't, it is such a massive help...also a big thank you to Ann who helped too : )

1911:
DOWNS PAMALAR F 1848 63 Bolton Lancashire
WARR JOSEPH THOMAS M 1902 9 Bolton Lancashire

I don't have a subscription so can't check details.

Ozi


Births Mar 1902
Warr Joseph Thomas Bolton 8c 357

???
Deaths Sep 1912
DOWNS William 67 Bolton 8c 461
Deaths Dec 1917
Downs William 71 Bolton 8c 345

This could be him visiting a daughter.

1901 England Census
Name: William Downs
Age: 53
Estimated birth year: abt 1848
Relation: Father-in-law
Gender: Male
Where born: Dunkenfield, Cheshire, England
Civil parish: Westhoughton
Ecclesiastical parish: West Houghton St Bartholomew
County/Island: Lancashire
Country: England
Street Address: 9 Esther Fold

Occupation: Coal Hewer

Condition as to marriage: Married

Registration district: Bolton
Sub-registration district: Horwich
ED, institution, or vessel: 28
Neighbors: View others on page
Household schedule number: 70
Household Members:
Name Age
James Taylor 32
Mary E Taylor 29
Lucy Taylor 8
Lily Taylor 6
Mary D Taylor 3
William Downs 53

Yes, the cert will have her maiden name.

For reference:
1901 England Census
Name: Pamala Downs
Age: 53
Estimated birth year: abt 1848
Relation: Head
Gender: Female
Where born: Wales
Civil parish: Westhoughton
Ecclesiastical parish: Daisy Hill St James
Town: Westhoughton
County/Island: Lancashire
Country: England
Street Address: 9 Turner Street

Condition as to marriage: Married

Registration district: Bolton
Sub-registration district: Horwich
ED, institution, or vessel: 31
Neighbors: View others on page
Household schedule number: 94
Household Members:
Name Age
Pamala Downs 53
Joseph T France 20
Catherine France 16
Annie France 13


Marriages Sep 1897
Boydell Alice Leigh 8c 397
Downes William Leigh 8c 397 <<<<<<<<<<<
Francis Pamalar Leigh 8c 397 <<<<<<<<<<<
Johnson John Vincent Leigh 8c 397


Deaths Jun 1928
Downs Pamalar 80 Bolton 8c 402

Do birth certs show the Mothers Maiden name? if it does, my next task is looking at why she became DOWNS by 1901...groan haha

Lorraine

Yes, that's what I think.

To be certain you should get the birth certificate of one of her children.

ozi

Pamillow Williams being the one aged 3 in 1848 and John & Ann being her parents ? (just the spelling of Pamela wrong?)...I just ignore the Roberts name then listed on the BMD ? ....
This is great if Pamela (with a thousand spellings haha) was a Williams - at least the search can continue..in your opinion, do you believe this to be true? And looking at Henry Roberts being a Nephew in the house, she possible lived with a family member aged 23 when she had John aged 1mnth?

: )

The other couple on the marriage index are on the same page as Francis/Williams.


1861 Wales Census
Name: John Williams
Age: 57
Estimated birth year: abt 1804
Relation: Head
Spouse's name: Ann
Gender: Male
Where born: Chirk, Denbighshire, Wales
Civil Parish or Township: Ruabon
County/Island: Denbighshire
Country: Wales
Street Address: Blacklion

Occupation: Coal Miner

Registration district: Wrexham
Sub-registration district: Ruabon
ED, institution, or vessel: 8
Neighbors: View others on page
Household schedule number: 240
Household Members:
Name Age
John Williams 57
Ann Williams 50 - born Ruabon
Mark William 16 - [Noah? The writing is a scrawl so hard to read.]
Pamillow William 14
Jonah William 11
Henry Roberts 28 - nephew

Thankyou, her Daughter Catherine would have been born around 1885 I think...

The link of the BMD showing the Roberts name, how does that read? I am not familiar with them at the moment (I will learn!). Does it just show Pamela Williams marrying thomas Francis, if so, whoo are Allen Roberts & Elizabeth evans listed? Are they just other arriages that day?

I do appreciate your efforts and time
thanks