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I just want to thank everyone who helped me with my question on Pamala Downs/Francis a few weeks ago Information I never knew about my family was unfolded as a result of your immediate responses, I applied for a birth certificate for Hugh Williams and it proved fruitful. I cannot thank you enough as I would certainly have not found this out myself with being a beginner : ) x

OMG! Fancy them putting that on the birth cert - can you imagine them doing that today...can you imagine the claims for compensation! haha

I can see the postings for the marriages for Sarah, they have appeared a few messages up for some reason...I woudl suggest the Bolton one to try first if I was a betting woman....: )

thanks Ann -

Not sure of that, I know they dont now unless the father is present. Most old ones I have seen just have a strike through the fathers column should the child be born out of wedlock.

I have seen on Baptism records for example:

John Doe baptised 23/1/1860 son of Ann the reputed father being Frank Jones from Wrexham!

Or: The bastard son /daur of Joe Bloggs

I hve just posted lancashire marriages for a Sarah Francis they are not showing dam!

Annx

I have printed the application to order Hugh's birth certificate and hope it shows Pam as his Mother!! Would it listthe father if she wasn't married?

These are the Sarah Francis marriages between the 2 census in LancasLancashire Marriage indexes for the years: 1891
Surname Forename(s) Surname Forename(s) Church / Register Office Registers At Reference
FRANCIS Sarah COOMBES Samuel Manchester Register Office or Registrar Attended Manchester MCR_RM/127/12



Lancashire Marriage indexes for the years: 1892
Surname Forename(s) Surname Forename(s) Church / Register Office Registers At Reference
FRANCIS Sarah ROBERTS Edward West Derby, Register Office or Registrar Attended Liverpool REG_WD/140/138
FRANCIS Sarah TYACK James Liverpool, St. John Liverpool 2107LP/13/392



Lancashire Marriage indexes for the years: 1897
Surname Forename(s) Surname Forename(s) Church / Register Office Registers At Reference
FRANCIS Sarah OWEN Matthew Bolton Register Office or Registrar Attended Bolton RO/122/24



Lancashire Marriage indexes for the years: 1898
Surname Forename(s) Surname Forename(s) Church / Register Office Registers At Reference
FRANCIS Sarah SWINDELLS William H Manchester, Hulme, St. Michael Manchester 69/5/339



Lancashire Marriage indexes for the years: 1904
Surname Forename(s) Surname Forename(s) Church / Register Office Registers At Reference
FRANCIS Sarah NORMINGTON Joe Colne, Christ Church Preston CE116/2/192


hire

OK, I shall do this - thanks Ann

I think the birthplace for Sarah is Rhosymedre. I was just thinking it maybe worth giving Hawarden record office a ring. They hold records for Flintshire & Denbighshire.

If Hugh was born Ruabon, maybe he was baptised in St Marys, should be quite easy to search as we know he was born March 71 and they usually in those days had them baptised within a fortnight....worth a shot!

Ann

Lorraine,

If you are using North Wales BMD, you have to place the order with them, as the reference numbers are theirs and will make no sense if ordering from the GRO.

Ann

I think I will, that will clarify it won't it...I will print it off and post the cheque tomorrow as I have a few others I need to do too (bring on the overtime at work next week haha)...
So I am searching the WALES BMD for a Hugh Williams like Ozi found in 1871?
Can I also be cheeky and ask you to search to see what happened to pams other kid Sarah? Again she is listed aged 8 a SARAH FRANCIS aged 8, living in Tyldesley, born in Rhosynedre (spelling?) in 1891 but not living with Pam in 1901 when Pam became Pam Downs living in Westhoughton (after 2nd marriage)...

And yes you confused me then, but glad the madness is feasible with the links LOL

So if Hugh was born early March and she waited a few weeks to register him, then he would fall into June quarter as the one we found. Why not send for the cert!

Ann

No your not now.........I can now see where Ozi is coming from....just!

Oh to be a fly on the wall! Could be she was not in the house and the enumerator asumed she was a ROBERTS from speaking to the family have heard that before. Or you have a family of say Jonses and Mr Jones says to the enumerator and this is Grandpa.........who the enumerator may presume is also a Jones when in fact he may wifes father..........now am I losing you!

Also I was busy trying to find a Pamela Roberts birth in Denbighshire.around 1848..THERE IS NONE AS FAR AS I CAN SEE.

Ann

haha you are not far wrong there Ann...
No sorry, I am not being clear...

in 1851, Pamala Williams is shown as living with her parents Ann & John. She was 3yrs and had siblings Emmanuel, Nohah & Jonah. We agreed Williams because a Pam Williams married a Thomas Francis in 1875 and it fits.
So, in 1861, looking for Pam Williams, we find her still living with her parents and she is now obviously aged 14. However, on the household list is her Cousin (listed as Nephew to head of the house) henry Roberts.
In 1871, we lose an entry for Pam Williams...there is no Pam Francis either aged 23/24yrs.
Ozi suggested looking for all Pams aged 24 in that area and came up with a Pam ROBERTS, living with a 1mnth old baby boy. The age of the baby boy would connect with the birth year of HUGH FRANCIS whom we found on the 1891 England census. We then thought ROBERTS was feasibe because 10years earlier, there was Nephew Henry Roberts living with them. Ozi says names did not to be accurate as you know....so, the suggestion is that Pam just listed herself as a SISTER to the head of the 1871 household she was living in and the 1mnth old boy, John Roberts could have been HUGH but he was bron out of wedlock so they just recorded John Roberts fpr the sake of it. This story is the only lead so far as there are no Pam Williams/Francis in 1871 listed.
Also, further info shows her future Hubby Thomas as possibly being married to a Sarah before Pam anyway (producing Mary ellen) so she would have deffo not been a Francis in 1871....

Phew, sorry if I am still confusing you : )

Well if this Hugh Williams is ours, same as the one found born Ruabon on the North Wales BMD June Quarter.

BIG chance he would not appear on the 1871 census taken April 2nd!

Annx

Just searching on FIRST name only, just 1 in Wrexham

See what i mean about names being very common.

(>99%)
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DAVIES Hugh Llanrwst 11b 406
DAVIES Hugh Llanrwst 11b 409
DAVIES Hugh Jones Wrexham 11b 314
Evans Hugh Conway 11b 577
JONES Hugh Llanrwst 11b 403
JONES Hugh St. Asaph 11b 391
JONES Hugh Conway 11b 571
JONES Hugh Fitzer Wrexham 11b 319
LLOYD Hugh Corwen 11b 415
Price Hugh Corwen 11b 412
WILLIAMS Hugh Llanrwst 11b 402
WILLIAMS Hugh Wrexham 11b 333
WILLIAMS Hugh Llanrwst 11b 404
WILLIAMS Hugh

Lorraine,

Dont get the Roberts connection at all, have looked at original and it states the same as transcription.

Why would Henry Roberts be John Roberts? Why indeed would Pamela be a Roberts.........I am not convinced yet.

In Wrexham i bet every other household was a ROBERTS WILLIAMS HUGHES DAVIES OR JONES LOL!

Ann

right OK I think then we need to retrace a little...
All that we know is that Hugh FRANCIS is aged 20 in 1891 England census, living with Thomas & Pamala.

You and Ozi have pinned him down aged 10 living in Tan Y Lan with Ann & John Williams, and he is listed as Hugh WILLIAMS

We then "guess" that as a newborn in 1871 he was listed with pamala living with the Roberts family at Corwen. Even Pam has listed herslef aged 23 as a Roberts. We accept this name connection because in 1861, there is a Henry Roberts (Nephew) livign with the Williams family. he is listed as John Roberts, 1mnth old....

and that is about it, where he went aged 30 we are unsure...unless Ozis link to Atherton and a Jane was accurate...I did think was it worth seeing if there was a Hugh Francis aged 30 living in either Ruabon or Westhoughton/Atherton?

x

So the first one I posted has the 2 people she wants to look at, and the last post has the 3rd person.

Ozi has no subscription to view, so she plays around with the indexes to pluck individuals out who may be the same family........if you get me.

What details do you know for sure regarding Hugh?

Annx

Don't think this is Hugh or any connection do you?

SAMUEL


1911 census - household transcription
Person: WILLIAMS, Samuel
Address: 8 West Street Atherton

Cost:
You will be charged 10 credits for a transcript and 30 credits for an image, unless you have purchased a subscription for this set of records.


census search results 1911 address search redefine current search
Name Relation Condition/
Yrs married Sex Age Birth
Year Occupation Where Born Original
census
image

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WILLIAMS, Thomas Head Married
22 years M 44 1867 Coal Miner Hewer Shropshire Condone VIEW
WILLIAMS, Eliza Wife Married F 42 1869 Shropshire Dorrington VIEW
WILLIAMS, George Son Single M 21 1890 Coal Miner Hewer Shropshire St Martin VIEW
WILLIAMS, John Son Single M 16 1895 Worker Lasher On Lancashire Atherton VIEW
WILLIAMS, Samuel Son M 13 1898 Worker Little Piecer Lancashire Atherton VIEW
WILLIAMS, Richard Son M 8 1903 Lancashire Atherton VIEW
WILLIAMS, Alice Daughter F 5 1906 Lancashire Atherton VIEW
WILLIAMS, Ada Daughter F 2 1909 Lancashire Atherton VIEW

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RG number:
RG14 Piece:
23231 Reference:
RG14PN23231 RG78PN1358 RD460 SD4 ED1 SN296

Registration District:
Leigh Sub District:
Atherton Enumeration District:
1 Parish:
Atherton

Address:
8 West Street Atherton County:
Lancashire

Hello Lorraine,

Yes the parade I forgot about that, I have photographs of my son along with his grandparents at the parade when he was much younger. The weather can be totally different along the coast, I was in Llandudno a couple of weeks ago...on the pier.........it was cold that day!!

That is my brothers patch.......he is a Police Officer on traffic.

Ozi may mean get the 3 results up.

Annx