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Warr Joseph Thomas Bolton 8c 357 1902

The grandsons birth

Hiya Ann, thanks for putting up with me, I have only been in an hour from Wales and have got straight on the laptop so mixed the dates up in my excitement.
Yes delete my previous two questions please!

Yes, Mary ellen shows in 1881 Wales census aged 13, living with her parents Pamala (or Pamley as it is spelled) & Thomas Francis.
In the 1891 England census they have moved to Tyldesley with some additions to the family. However, Mary ellen is not there so we can assume she has married because she wuld be 23.
However, from the info from Ozi, in 1871 Wales, the only search on Pamela is a Pamilla Roberts aged 23 (right age she would have been) and she is listed as a Sister of the head of the household. What made Ozi think it was our Pamala Williams was because on 1861 there was a Nephew living with Pamala and her family, and he was Henry Roberts, so the link really is just the name. Ozi thought the baby aged 1mnth in 1871 listed with the Roberts family could have been Hugh....Simply named John to fit in with the household (because his age fits with Hugh aged 20)....and because Pamala was not married!

Sorry I am possibly confusing things more!

As for confirming the age of 9years, thank you, I will set about tracing this birth cert....you are right it is expensive but a lovely hobby....and made better when you get valuable help from you kind people!

: )

Lorraine,

I have deleted my 2 deaths..........your postings you have to use the delete button yourself.

I have posted you the birth of the GRANDSON!

Not sure about the ROBERTS saga idea, am unable to get my head around that one!

Annx

Ann, you mentioned a few days ago that the ONLY BMD listed for Pamela to a Thomas Francis was a Pam Williams in Llangollen, what year was this please?

x

Surname First name(s) District Vol Page

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Marriages Jun 1891 (>99%)
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Charles William Wrexham 11b 475
Francis Mary Ellen Wrexham 11b 475
Maddocks Mary Elizabeth Wrexham 11b 475
Silvester Harry Wrexham 11b 475

Surname First name(s) District Vol Page

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Marriages Sep 1897 (>99%)
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Ellis Margaret Wrexham 11b 432
Francis Mary Ellen Wrexham 11b 432
Jarvis John Wrexham 11b 432
Richards William Wrexham 11b 432

Many many thanks....what does Warr mean?

As for the Roberts idea, it does sound feasible now Ozi mentions it, espcially witht he Roberts Nephew living there in 1861 and then the age of the baby co-inciding with th eage of Hugh in 1891. Ozi found Hugh Williams registered as a birth in Wrexham in 1871 hence then when the cenus was done he was possibly 1mnth old and Pam did not know what to register him as as she was not wed? Still does not tell us where mary ellen was aged 3 though unless she stayed with Ann & John Williams (Pams parents?)

I think I will pay and subscribe to the Ancestry website instead if relying on the library - as it is times like now when I am stumped and rely on others to kindly search : )

Is this my posting you are refering to

Well for def there is a Pamela Downs born Ruabon, but not till 1851.

Looking on the North Wales BMD the ONLY Pamela that married a Thomas Francis is a WILLIAMS that marriage took place in Llangollen

Annx

Edit | Delete | Add

WARR...........is the grandsons surname.

Ann

obviously without copies of the marriage certs you cannot 100% be correct, but I reckon the 1891 marriage could be the one in 1891 could be her hence her not showing as living with her parents..however, I have learned in a short space of time that assuming is dangerous! : )

Sorry lorraine for being so long only i am helping soeone else as well

The marriage I found was 1875


If you google North Wales bmd.........you can search marriage births and deaths in Denbighshire.

There is also Free bmd which has the GRO numbers alongside for ordering.

The NW BMD reference numbers are to order only from denbighshire record offices. You will get the hang of it!! in about 10 years lol

Where did you go in Wales?

Ann

oh right, Joseph Thomas Warr....wonder who he was then? Can't be one of the Sons children, wonder if coz she remarried to William Downs in 1897 if it could be connected to his side??

1801 10th March No longer exists, with a few exceptions
1811 27th May No longer exists, with a few exceptions
1821 28th May No longer exists, with a few exceptions
1831 30th May No longer exists, with a few exceptions
1841 6th June Available
1851 30th March Available
1861 7th April Available
1871 2nd April Available
1881 3rd April Available
1891 5th April Available
1901 31st March Available
1911 2nd April Available


These are the dates the census were taken.........handy to have

So the marriage took place June Quarter which means she married April/May/June........possible yes
Annx

hey don't apologise for taking 10mins haha
you are truly an asset. I am lucky to have your help.
If she married in 1875 then that possibly fills a gap from Ozi. You say the 1911 census household transcription has Pam married for 37years...so, if she was married in 1875 that means her last partner (assuming they add together all married years?) died in 1912. Ozi found two death entries for Pams secons Husband's name and one was 1912, so that should be the one : )

I went to Abergele in Wales which is around 15nins onwards from Denbigh...next time I am going to detour to all the names mentioned in these findings....where are you from Ann?

Excellent, in my naivity I assumed the cencus took place over a few weeks as it was a mamoth task! This now makes on ediscovery I have VERY POSSIBLE!!! brilliant, thanks

Lorraine.............How many years married on the 1911 census.

The 1911 was the first census to include this question, it means how many years married to the person she is with at the time of the census not any previous partners! LOL

Denbigh!!.............I live in Buckley Nr. Mold!

Small World!

Just thinking, this would show Mary Ellen with a 2yr age difference ....and the age of the children do not fit if she was born in 1868..or again, am I looking at something incorrectly coz I am new to this?
: )

Aah right, I thought you said 37years which would fit both marriages together, but not one if Thomas Francis, her frst hubby died in 1894 then it showed her remarried to Williams Downs in 1897...did you see when Pamela Williams married Thomas Francis in Llangollen? what year was that then? I thought I had cracked it then lol....maybe she lied lol

Buckley, I have heard of there, I used to order from a company called Buckley Industrial in my old job, they did Industrial Hoses etc ..I passed the turn off for that today. Im only in Leigh, near Wigan. I did a walk once - Moel Famur & Moel Arthur, is that near you? Very small world : )

The 1901 silvester lot may be a fluke, but was looking at the Frances name..........saw them in 1911 and another Francis sister-in-law is with them.

A few years age difference on census is nothing, you will come across that all the time, when I search i usually do a 3/5 year around the supposed year of birth.

I will delete the francis thread as it may cause confusion.

Annx

what a pity it was not a magical discovery!! thanks Ann...
I used to work with a gut from Wrexham called John, his Wife was Ann and he introduced me to the Buckly company, his name was John Leyland...any connection?