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No, I have searched for Hugh but he just shows in the 1891 then none after..I had assumed he had left home by 1891 as he would have been c.30yrs....so I was curious to find him aged 10 in the 1871 census...maybe he was a ghost haha

Lorraine

interesting...wonder if she made the Downs name up when she moved by 1901? or even re-married and her Husband died before my Nan was born? My Nan was born 1916 and only remembered her vaguely. It does seem uncanny that the Pamela Williams born in 1848 married a Thomas Francis...and thanks for the info on Hugh....again it is plausible that he wasn't Thomas's SOn but they just listed him as a Francis on the 1891 census for the sake of it.

Would they mistranscribe to read Roberts?
Again, excuse my ignorance on this subject : )

HI
I really appreciate your help and research on this. Summarising your messages then ...is the following feasible?

Pamela was born a Williams not a Downs....she then married and had Hugh whom she listed in 1871 as John Roberts aged 1mnth and herself as Pamilla Roberts aged 23, living with Elizabeth Roberts (aged 49).

You say the 1875 BMD records shows marriage details Allen Roberts, Pamela Williams, Elizabeth Evans, Thomas Francis - All saying Corwen. Is Corwen a town? Does this read as Pamela married a Thomas francis in 1875 or an Allen Roberts? (I am a tad confused att his point).

we then know then that by 1881 she was registered on the census as married to Thomas Francis and then the children begin (Joseph, Sarah, Catherine etc).

What do you think?

cheers

I'm not sure she was ever a Roberts. I think the enumerator wrote Roberts because she was recorded as sister. There are too many Elizabeth Williams marrying male Roberts in Wrexham. I'm trying to find her & Catherine in 1861.

I'm also checking for Pamela's family in 1841 but they are being elusive.

Ozi

Thankyou, her Daughter Catherine would have been born around 1885 I think...

The link of the BMD showing the Roberts name, how does that read? I am not familiar with them at the moment (I will learn!). Does it just show Pamela Williams marrying thomas Francis, if so, whoo are Allen Roberts & Elizabeth evans listed? Are they just other arriages that day?

I do appreciate your efforts and time
thanks

The other couple on the marriage index are on the same page as Francis/Williams.


1861 Wales Census
Name: John Williams
Age: 57
Estimated birth year: abt 1804
Relation: Head
Spouse's name: Ann
Gender: Male
Where born: Chirk, Denbighshire, Wales
Civil Parish or Township: Ruabon
County/Island: Denbighshire
Country: Wales
Street Address: Blacklion

Occupation: Coal Miner

Registration district: Wrexham
Sub-registration district: Ruabon
ED, institution, or vessel: 8
Neighbors: View others on page
Household schedule number: 240
Household Members:
Name Age
John Williams 57
Ann Williams 50 - born Ruabon
Mark William 16 - [Noah? The writing is a scrawl so hard to read.]
Pamillow William 14
Jonah William 11
Henry Roberts 28 - nephew

Pamillow Williams being the one aged 3 in 1848 and John & Ann being her parents ? (just the spelling of Pamela wrong?)...I just ignore the Roberts name then listed on the BMD ? ....
This is great if Pamela (with a thousand spellings haha) was a Williams - at least the search can continue..in your opinion, do you believe this to be true? And looking at Henry Roberts being a Nephew in the house, she possible lived with a family member aged 23 when she had John aged 1mnth?

: )

Yes, that's what I think.

To be certain you should get the birth certificate of one of her children.

ozi

Do birth certs show the Mothers Maiden name? if it does, my next task is looking at why she became DOWNS by 1901...groan haha

Lorraine

Yes, the cert will have her maiden name.

For reference:
1901 England Census
Name: Pamala Downs
Age: 53
Estimated birth year: abt 1848
Relation: Head
Gender: Female
Where born: Wales
Civil parish: Westhoughton
Ecclesiastical parish: Daisy Hill St James
Town: Westhoughton
County/Island: Lancashire
Country: England
Street Address: 9 Turner Street

Condition as to marriage: Married

Registration district: Bolton
Sub-registration district: Horwich
ED, institution, or vessel: 31
Neighbors: View others on page
Household schedule number: 94
Household Members:
Name Age
Pamala Downs 53
Joseph T France 20
Catherine France 16
Annie France 13


Marriages Sep 1897
Boydell Alice Leigh 8c 397
Downes William Leigh 8c 397 <<<<<<<<<<<
Francis Pamalar Leigh 8c 397 <<<<<<<<<<<
Johnson John Vincent Leigh 8c 397


Deaths Jun 1928
Downs Pamalar 80 Bolton 8c 402

This could be him visiting a daughter.

1901 England Census
Name: William Downs
Age: 53
Estimated birth year: abt 1848
Relation: Father-in-law
Gender: Male
Where born: Dunkenfield, Cheshire, England
Civil parish: Westhoughton
Ecclesiastical parish: West Houghton St Bartholomew
County/Island: Lancashire
Country: England
Street Address: 9 Esther Fold

Occupation: Coal Hewer

Condition as to marriage: Married

Registration district: Bolton
Sub-registration district: Horwich
ED, institution, or vessel: 28
Neighbors: View others on page
Household schedule number: 70
Household Members:
Name Age
James Taylor 32
Mary E Taylor 29
Lucy Taylor 8
Lily Taylor 6
Mary D Taylor 3
William Downs 53

???
Deaths Sep 1912
DOWNS William 67 Bolton 8c 461
Deaths Dec 1917
Downs William 71 Bolton 8c 345

1911:
DOWNS PAMALAR F 1848 63 Bolton Lancashire
WARR JOSEPH THOMAS M 1902 9 Bolton Lancashire

I don't have a subscription so can't check details.

Ozi


Births Mar 1902
Warr Joseph Thomas Bolton 8c 357

Blimey Ozi you have done more in a few hours than I could have possibly imagined! I spent two hours yesterday trying to find Pamala Downs in 1871 but to no avail (now we know why!).

I need to go on the 1911 census then and read what the WARR means against Josephs name (My great Granddad).

I cannot thank you enough for this, I really can't, it is such a massive help...also a big thank you to Ann who helped too : )

Actually thinking about it, Joseph Thomas was born in the 1880's so would not have been 9 in 1902...wonder who that was then? As I say, I need to get on the 1911 census to see!

I knew I had seen William Downs somewhere before! I just looked at my print out of the 1891 census and William Downs lived on Turner St (where Pamalar moved to) with Wife Mary and Mary Taylor (lodger) and John Bond (Lodger)....so it seems that Pamalar married William 6yrs later...and you are right when you say in 1901, he was visitng a Daughter, Mary Taylor!

So I wonder when Thomas Francis died? He moved to Tyldesley by 1891 but it does not show him in 1901...he obviously died between 1891 & 1897 when she re-married...ooh this is exciting (for me anyway!)...thank you

This seems to be a good bet. About the right age, and registered in Leigh. This is the same district that he was in for 1891 census and where Pamela married William Downs.

Deaths Dec 1894
Francis Thomas 52 Leigh 8c 181

Happy hunting,
Ozi

1911 census - household transcription
Person: DOWNS, Pamalar
Address: 367 Hindley Road Westhoughton

Cost:
You will be charged 10 credits for a transcript and 30 credits for an image, unless you have purchased a subscription for this set of records.


census search results 1911 address search redefine current search
Name Relation Condition/
Yrs married Sex Age Birth
Year Occupation Where Born Original
census
image

--------------------------------------------------------------------------------

DOWNS, Pamalar Head Married
37 years F 63 1848 Cherk Green North Wales VIEW
WARR, Joseph Thomas Grandson M 9 1902 Lancashire Westhoughton VIEW

--------------------------------------------------------------------------------

RG number:
RG14 Piece:
23345 Reference:
RG14PN23345 RG78PN1362 RD461 SD4 ED18 SN22

Registration District:
Bolton Sub District:
Horwich Enumeration District:
18 Parish:
Westhoughton

Address:
367 Hindley Road Westhoughton County:
Lancashire

On the original says married 37 years/ 7 children/ 5 living/ 2 deaths.
Place of birth Chirk Green? North Wales.

Annx

Obviously I have to learn so how would I go about finding who the Grandson belonged to in 1911? does M 9 means nine months? If so, My Great Grandad, Joseph Thomas could have been the Father? I know he had 3 children in his 30's with Annie Morris, Joseph (1915), Catherine (1916) & Vernon, (1917 or 18) so I assumed these were the only children he ever had and that he was a "late starter" for those days...
Could he have had a child previously who did not survive as we have never heard of him or could he belong to one of Pamalas other children maybe?

: )

Right Lorraine, have got you now.........I think! I will delete the 2 deaths save confusing the issue.

So mary Ellen shows in 1881 but not in 1871 aged 3

Hugh is on the 1891 but not listed 1871

1861..........He's called John Roberts! (am a bit lost on that one as its one of Ozi's) and was not following the plot.

As well as the 1911 index i have looked at the original and the grandson is 9 years........the M means Male. We need to find his birth and you will have to send for the cert to determin his parents, it is not something you can take a guess at.........it is a expensive hobby genealogy!

Annx