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You stuck that in after!!!

Unfortunately this is your Henry in 1891:

1891 England Census
about Henry Bird
Name: Henry Bird
Age: 32
Estimated birth year: abt 1859
Relation: Head
Spouse's name: Mary A
Gender: Male
Where born: Minworth, Warwickshire, England

Civil parish: Sutton Coldfield
Ecclesiastical parish: Holy Trinity
County/Island: Warwickshire
Country: England

Registration district: Aston
Sub-registration district: Sutton Coldfield
ED, institution, or vessel: 5
Neighbors: View others on page
Household Members: Name Age
Henry Bird 32 Groom
Mary A Bird 33
Alfred L Bird 11

EDIT: Well I THINK it is him, though the child is 11 and there is a marriage to a Mary Ann in 1879. But I can't find her and child in 1881. There is a poss marriage in 1886 too.

You may have read before my edit, Meg - the age in 1881 was clearly 22 on the image, not 32. So perfect match for the 1871 Henry, which is undoubtedly that same Henry.

I know it makes him younger than we think our Henry is, but age is an ephemeral thing. ;)

I wish Richard would make full disclosure! Yes, do we know the age when he joined up?

("My" Henry would of course have been old enough to enrol, so no need to make himself older.)

If the only age we have is from a death record, survivors could simply not have known.

Think your arithmetic went awry with the 1871/81 Henry, Janey. EDIT, Janey corrected it.

Richard, as you have info on Henry's army record, does it tell you what date he joined up?

There are an astounding number of Birds in 1881 who are grooms.


Two who might be of interest, or worth investigating:


Name: James Bird
Age: 55
Estimated birth year: abt 1826
Relation: Head
Spouse's name: Eliza
Where born: Manton, Wiltshire, England

Civil parish: FyfieldCountry: England

Street Address: No 37 Audley Down Cottages
Registration district: Marlborough

James Bird 55
Eliza Bird 54
Sidney Bird 17


Name: Henry Bird
Age: 32 >>> it says *22*
Estimated birth year: abt 1849
Relation: Servant
Where born: Minworth

Civil parish: Curdworth
County/Island: Warwickshire
Street Address: Minworth Green (a farm)
>> Registration district: Aston

Thomas Wakefield 83
Elizabeth Hughes 60
Agens Barber 22
Henry Bird 32


That 1881 Henry looks like this 1871 Henry (one of his brothers is shown as born in Minworth):

Name: Henry Bird
Age: 12
Estimated birth year: abt 1859
Relation: Son
Father's Name: James
Mother's Name: Ellen
Where born: Wigginshill, Warwickshire, England

Civil parish: Sutton Coldfield
Town: Walmley
County/Island: Warwickshire
Registration district: Aston

James Bird 40 - farm labourer
Ellen Bird 31
Henry Bird 12
William Bird 10
Ann Bird 8
Elizabeth Bird 6
James Bird 5
Alfred Bird 3
Louisa Bird 11 months


A farm labourer could very easily become a groom on the marriage record of a son who had been a groom on a farm.


Here are the parents in 1881:

Name: James Bird
Age: 49
Estimated birth year: abt 1832
Relation: Head
Spouse's name: Ellen
Where born: Bicknell, Warwickshire, England

Occupation: Farmer & Hauler

Civil parish: Sutton Coldfield
County/Island: Warwickshire
Street Address: Redcap Plain
Registration district: Aston

James Bird 49
Ellen Bird 40
Annie Bird 18
James Bird 15
Alfred Bird 13
Louisa Bird 10
Ellen Bird 9

I think we can take this as fact:


Henry married ANNIE ELLEN WILLIAMS (in India) in 1885. On the marriage Cert it states Henry's father, JAMES, as a groom as his profession! Annie's father William Williams as a clerk. Henry and Annie's children are as follows.
William, Arthur and Herbert, (My Grand father)


I'm not convinced that we can take the birth info as fact. The father being a jeweler at one point and a groom at another is just not credible. - Unless - he joined the military and became a groom, after being a jeweler in civilian life. Still not likely.

I'd done a bit of searching at FIBIS last night.

http://search.fibis.org/frontis/bin/aps_person_search.php

and saw the marriage:

Entry from Transcription of Bengal Marriage Indexes 1874 - 1896
Presidency of Marriage BENGAL
Marriage Year 1885
Husband First Names Henry
Husband Surname Bird
Wife First Names Annie S.
Wife Surname Williams
Prefix N1
Source Year 1885
Volume Number 194
Folio 231a
LDS Film Reference 510877

"Annie S" - could be a mistranscription?

So, Richard, you know your grandfather was Henry Bird born c 1852/3 from his death in India in 1904 age 51 (unless, of course, he lied about his age in order to join the army). You have the marriage certificate of this chap to Annie Ellen Williams in India in 1885, which presumably says he was 32-ish on marriage. His father is James Bird, a groom. At some point there is something saying that Henry was also a groom. And there is some mention of a James Bird from Bishops Stortford (which incidentally is in Hertfordshire not Cambridgeshire).

Henry and Annie Ellen have children William Henry (1886?), Arthur Edward (1888?) and Herbert (1889?) all born in India.

What is said about this James bird? What makes you think he was born 1830s?

I agree the "best" Henry with a father James is the one in Birmingham who is a jeweller, but this chap seems to remain in Birmingham, is also a jeweller, marries twice and has no children. Of course we'd need his marriage certificates to prove he is the son of James the jeweller - and hence not your Henry.

I appreciate there is a family story that says the Birds were jewellers, but at this point we only have two grooms.

Have you got your grandfather's birth certificate so we can confirm parent's names and occupations, in particular mother's name, just so we can confirm that you have the correct marriage for Henry.

also when did they come back from India, are they on 1901 / 1911 census

Hi again, let me apologise if I did the wrong thing as I am new to this.
Margaret, I have a copy of the Birth Cert of Henry Bird ( there is no mention of the name Thomas there, I was again put off the track by another member's input.) They are going down another James Bird's track which I now know is incorrect. l have looked at the Census of 1861 and 1871 and this is the correct James Bird.

His son Henry was born on 20 July 1852, Registered on the 20/Aug/1852 in the District of St Thomas Birmingham. The father is named as James Bird (jeweller) and mother Priscilla Adam, Stoke St Birmingham. My father always said the family were jewellers. Their children as follows.....

James (1851) - HENRY Jr.(1852) – Mary (1856) – William (1858) - Laura (1866) – Catherine (1868)

Henry married ANNIE ELLEN WILLIAMS (in India) in 1885. On the marriage Cert it states Henry's father, JAMES, as a groom as his profession! Annie's father William Williams as a clerk. Henry and Annie's children are as follows.
William, Arthur and Herbert, (My Grand father)

Henry's Army Number was R.A.12021.
I have a feeling that there were two Henry's getting mixed up on the Army record as I can see some lines through army numbers with another Henry Bird.
On Henry's Military record it shows Annie Ellen Williams as wife and next of kin.
He died in Bareilly in India in 1904.

I am going to investigate a James Bird c1830's from Bishops Stortford Cambridgeshire to try and see what his profession was as he is mentioned on the army record as well and on there Henry is listed as a groom as a profession as well.

I'm sorry this is such a mix up but I feel I must get to the bottom of who my ancestor was.

Many thanks to you and the others for all you input so far
Sincerely
Richard

Now I am getting more bothered, cos this Henry Bird is a jeweller/Gold ring maker:

1901 England Census
about Henry Bird
Name: Henry Bird
Age: 48
Estimated birth year: abt 1853
Relation: Head
Spouse's name: Jane Elizh
Gender: Male
Where born: Birmingham, Warwickshire, England

Civil parish: Birmingham
Ecclesiastical parish: St Mark
County/Island: Warwickshire
Country: England

Registration district: Birmingham
Sub-registration district: Lady Wood
ED, institution, or vessel: 18
Neighbors: View others on page
Household schedule number: 165
Household Members: Name Age
Henry Bird 48
Jane Elizh Bird 31

Different wife from 1891 because:

Deaths Sep 1891 (>99%)
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------
Bird Annie Maria 33 Birmingham 6d 115

There is a marriage of Henry Bird in Birmingham Dec 1892, unfortunately the wife Jane Elizabeth is missing from the records.

If this is your Henry, I can't see any mention of a middle name Thomas, and I wouldn't expect a 48-year-old to be tripping off to join the Army in India.

There are no children born to Henry and either of his wives.

So, my assumption now is that this is not your Henry.

I am guessing now that you have an ancestor called Henry (Thomas?) Bird who joined the army and went to India. For some reason unbeknown to us as yet, you have decided that he is the one born in 1852 to James and Priscilla, James being a jeweller NOT born in 1811, but in 1827.

Well, I don't think this is your Henry's birth.

So can you please tell us what FACTS you have about your Henry?

Who did he marry (if he married at all), when and where? Have you got the marriage certificate and if so, who is his father on that certificate?
What children did he have?
When did he go to India? When and where did he die?

And then maybe we can start again.

Forgive my paltry little effort. I spent hours looking last night with no active result. Oh there are plenty of Bird types but none you could choose with any accuracy. I think certificates are the only way to go, at least until you pinpoint who the parents of James were.

Do you have any idea with which regiment Henry served. You did say his parents went to visit him in India. Being able to search the name of the regiment will often give clues to other information.

I say: get the James-Priscilla marriage certificate and hope it gives his age (very probably it doesn't) and occupation, and his father's name and occupation.

Meanwhile, I guess I'd also like confirmation that James & Priscilla are the couple in question.

Richard:

Do you have the birth certificate of the child to show the parents' names?

-- oops, sorry, you have that birth certificate. Next question: how certain are you that the child in question is your ancestor, and how do you know?
-- oops oops! Meg asked exactly that question. ;)

Or have you indeed found the child with them in a census?

We really need to know how much of all this is fact, and how much is guesswork.

What's the earliest *fact* you have -- a marriage or birth that you know to be fact, either from a certificate or from very certain family knowledge?
(such as, you or your parent has personal knowledge of who your grandparent's parents were)

Or did you mean that Henry is still around in 1891, also a jeweller?

1891 England Census
about Henry Bird
Name: Henry Bird
Age: 38
Estimated birth year: abt 1853
Relation: Head
Spouse's name: Annie M
Gender: Male
Where born: Birmingham, Warwickshire, England

Civil parish: Birmingham
Ecclesiastical parish: St Paul
Town: Birmingham
County/Island: Warwickshire
Country: England

Registration district: Birmingham
Sub-registration district: All Saints
ED, institution, or vessel: 2
Neighbors: View others on page
Household Members: Name Age
Henry Bird 38 Jeweller
Annie M Bird 33

I'm still not happy, Richard. There is indeed a Henry (EDIT, James) Bird, jeweller, born in 1811, but he appears to be married to Ann, and I can find no son Henry Thomas with them (well, I can't find them in 1861 or later). So I am not sure how or why you have concluded that your Henry (EDIT James) was born 1811. Perhaps you can tell us.

On the assumption that the chap born c 1827 is the right one, this would seem to be his family in 1871, to match Janey's 1861 family on page 1:

1871 England Census
about James Bird
Name: James Bird
Age: 43
Estimated birth year: abt 1828
Relation: Head
Spouse's name: Princella
Gender: Male
Where born: Birmingham, Warwickshire, England
Civil parish: All Saints
Ecclesiastical parish: All Saints
County/Island: Warwickshire
Country: England
Registration district: Birmingham
Sub-registration district: All Saints
ED, institution, or vessel: 22
Household schedule number: 52
Household Members: Name Age
James Bird 43 Jeweller
Princella Bird 43
James Bird 20
Henry Bird 18
Mary Bird 15
William Bird 13
Loura Bird 5
Catherine Bird 3

And 1851:

1851 England Census
about Priscilla Bires
Name: Priscilla Bires
Age: 22
Estimated birth year: abt 1829
Relation: Wife
Spouse's name: James
Gender: Female
Where born: Birmingham

Civil parish: Birmingham
Ecclesiastical parish: All Saints
County/Island: Warwickshire
Country: England

Registration district: Birmingham
Sub-registration district: All Saints
ED, institution, or vessel: 12
Neighbors: View others on page
Household schedule number: 168
Household Members: Name Age
James Bires 23 (It clearly reads "Bird" on the original) Jeweller
Priscilla Bires 22
James Bires 6 Mo
Clara Bires 9 Sister

I haven't found James or Priscilla after 1871 - please give the details of the 1891 census.

The two youngest girls, Laura and Catherine are in service in 1881.

There is a death for James in 1877, age 50, and a death for Priscilla in 1875 age 48.

So I am not sure where your suggestion that they emigrated has come from.

So the next question is how certain are you that this Henry Thomas is your ancestor? Have you got his marriage certificate and does it say his father is James, a jeweller?

Richard, why did you start a new thread, and not even give the info already in this one? --

http://www.genesreunited.co.uk/boards.asp?wci=thread&tk=1184685

One post per subject is the rule. Nobody likes spending time doing what has already been done.

Also, stating something as fact that isn't just isn't wise. When you said your James was married to Charlotte, we assume that there were facts that showed that. Not that you had just found a James married to a Charlotte and assumed he was yours without investigating.

At least our investigations have now shown that he wasn't ...


To order the Bird-Adams marriage certificate, take the info on the previous page (including the district, year, quarter, volume and page) and go here:

http://www.gro.gov.uk/gro/content/certificates/

You can order it on line.

Husband JAMES BIRD
Wife PRISCILLA ADAM
Marriage: 12 NOV 1849 Aston Juxta Birmingham, Warwick, England

From the IGI. You had the correct info.

Is it still fun or are you drowning in red herrings.

Just call me Sherlock!!

PM sent to Richard to get him back to look at things.

Not to mention that the Charlotte Bird death in Birmingham is several years after the Priscilla marriage, and a whole lot of other things don't add up at all.

Some of the things stated in the opening post: Facts not in evidence, as they say in police procedurals on US teevee!

I think there's a fair bit of muddled info here.

Richard, summat ain't right with the age of Mr Bird. Can you tell us which of his children is your ancestor and what information you have on that person?

Deaths Jun 1853 (>99%)
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------

Askey Elizabeth Birmingham 6d 119
Barber Catharine Birmingham 6d 119
Bennett Richard Birmingham 6d 119
Bird Charlotte Birmingham 6d 119