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"How do you you know that this is your Henry. I mean what PROOF do you have."

Oh lord, Madmeg, I hadn't even thought of that!

Hopefully the birth/deaths in India confirm this somehow?


Btw, Richard --

"Henry was 33years and 4 months old, Annie 21 years old. So if this was in 1885 it would make James Bird the father around 1827 ish. or thereabouts."

Or 1817. Or 1807.

We really can't just guess at how old someone was when they had a particular child. It may have been their first child and they were 17; it may have been their last child and they were 57. My gr-grfather had children at age 21 and age 50.


Victoria's WHBird in 1871:

Name: William H Bird
Age: 15
Estimated birth year: abt 1856
Relation: Son
Father's Name: Charles
Mother's Name: Louisa
Where born: Nottinghamshire, England
Civil parish: St Nicholas
Town: Nottingham

Only candidate for his birth:

Births Jun 1856
Bird William Henry Nottingham 7b 234

making him really too young to have signed up in summer 1870, I think, and get shipped to India 6 months later.

1881 maybe

William H. Bird
Age: 25
Estimated birth year: abt 1856
Gender: Male
Where born: St John, Nottinghamshire, England

Civil parish: Exeter Heavitree
County/Island: Devon
Country: England

Street Address: "Royal Artillery Barracks"
Condition as to marriage: Married
Education:

Employment status:

View image
Occupation: Driver R H A

Registration district: St Thomas
Sub-registration district: Heavitree
ED, institution, or vessel: The Royal Artillery Barracks

I have read all Janey's offerings, agree with them all.

Richard please read and DIGEST. As far as I can see there is absolutely nothing to connect your Henry to the jewellers of Warwickshire.

You were barking up the wrong tree, as I thought from Day 1.

So please tell us the details you have of the marriage of Henry to Elizabeth Purnell in 1876 in Woolwich Jun 1d/371. His father please.

And just an aside. How do you you know that this is your Henry. I mean what PROOF do you have.

I would like you to be able to tell me that you have the birth certificate of William John Bird born in Pershawar in 1883. There is some confusion here cos you say he died 16 April 1883 and later you say he died 16 April 1883 age 7 years. Which means he was born 1876. Which is it?

You have to admit, Richard, that your evidence has been very sparse and unreliable. You started off by convincing us that you had proof of things, now you have unearthed a whole lot of new people, and even then the evidence doesn't add up.

Please do try and sort this out. We can't do anything to help you in this muddle.

Oh crikey. So Henry is from Bishops Stortford? You said it was James who was from there. Bishops Stortford is in Hertfordshire, I already said that - do you not read what has been given to you? It is close to Cambridgeshire, but nowhere near Warwickshire. You only need to google Multimap to see that.

Now you have the revellation that he married twice. Did you not think that might be important to us?

I don't think I understand a word of what you have said, BUT I will wade through it and see what Janey has already said, and hope we can piece something together for you.

If your Henry joined up on 21 July 1870 and served 163 days before being sent to India

*** then he was in India for the 1871 census ***.

The census was 240+ days after he joined up.

So if we do the math, he is *not* Henry son of James and Priscilla -- because *that* Henry is in Warwickshire with his parents in the 1871 census.

*Your* Henry
- had already joined the military
- was in India.

?!?!?!?

All this time you had that simple info, and you're still tracking that Henry??

If you would care to step this way, I would like to smite you mightily.

Unless my arithmetic skills have got really bad ...


If he signed up at the local police station in Lambeth, might we not do well to look at Henrys in that vicinity? (A birthplace of "London, Middlesex", as in the 1881 record, might not be too far off as generalizations go.)

Like maybe this one in 1861? Just for a possibility.


Name: Henry Bird
Age: 7
Estimated birth year: abt 1854
Relation: Son
Father's Name: James
Mother's Name: Ann
Where born: Elsenham, Essex, England

Civil parish: Lambeth

James Bird 42 - "gardner"
Ann Bird 30
William Bird 10
Henry Bird 7
Margery A Bird 10 Mo
William Daniels 3


This would be that one's birth (if the above place of birth is correct):

Births Dec 1853
BIRD Henry Saffron Wn 4a 289

He would likely have been not quite 17 in July 1870. Was 17 the minimum age?

Ages are not shown in the deaths index until the mid-1860s, but this death could be a match for that father James (there are two others before that after 1861):

Deaths Mar 1866
Bird James 47 Lambeth 1d 313


Mother Ann was widowed by 1871 in Lambeth (and the children are all born by 1866) -- and son James is not in the household, or anywhere else I can see:

Ann Bird 36
Mary Ann Bird 10
Jane Bird 7
Sarah Bird 6
Holbert Butter 22

I've found a corporal in 1881


Name: Henry Bird
Age: 27
Estimated birth year: abt 1854
Where born: London, Middlesex, England

Civil parish: Vessels
County/Island: Royal Navy
Country: England
Street Address: "Crocodile"

Occupation: Corporal 25th Regt

Registration district: Royal Navy


He's shown as single, but then so is every person on the page after the married couple at the top.

There's also a long list of "Gunner, R.A." men on the vessel.



This is interesting:

http://archiver.rootsweb.ancestry.com/th/read/Mariners/2001-10/1002467028

"On the 1881 census my great grandfather was shown as being on board HMS Crocodile a troop ship. I believe he was on his way to India?"

"Information about HMS Crocodile, which was indeed a troopship, will be in the Public Record Office at Kew, London. The Royal Naval Museum, HM Naval Base, Portsmouth, Hants, PO1 3LR, UK, has an extensive photographic collection and may well be able to supply a photo of the ship. Your ggf nay well have been on his way to India although it could equally have been to any one of a considerable number of overseas postings almost anywhere in the then British Empire."

"The log of HMS CROCODILE for 1881 is in the Public Record Office at ADM 53/11615 & 11616"



and quite interesting:


http://archiver.rootsweb.ancestry.com/th/read/TheShipsList/2009-02/1234465861

The Crocodile would have been the 1882 ship. Jan 5, 1882 "Naval And Military Intelligence" reported the Crocodile sailed for Malta and Bombay on Jan 3. On Jan 28, 1882 they reported the ships arrival at Bombay. On Feb 3, they reported her sailing from Bombay back to England.

Feb 22, 1882: "The Crocodile, from India, arrived at Malta yesterday. She brings home the 1st Battalion of the Dorsetshire Regiment, which will be landed at Portland, the B and C Batteries Royal Horse Artillery, and the 19th Battery. 8th Brigade Royal Artillery."

On Mon, Feb 27, she was reported passing Gibraltar on Saturday. On Mar 2, she arrived off Portland. She started her next run and was reported arrived at Bombay in the April 11, paper. She sailed on April 16, [reported in the April 18 paper] and arrived at Malta "yesterday" [reported in the May 5 paper].

Mon, May 15, 1882:
The Crocodile, Cap Cardale, which left Bombay on the 16th of April, arrived at Spithead during the night of Friday, and steamed into harbour on Saturday morning, being a couple of days in advance of her time. During the voyage home nine deaths occurred...The Crocodile brought home 540 invalids, 152 time-expired men, 60 men to join depots, 69 women, 157 children, and the following officers..."

>>> Crocodile was then sent in for a refit and did not sail to India again until mid-Oct. She arrived in India in mid-Nov. On Mon, Nov 27, she was reported: "Her Majesty's Indian troopship Crocodile left Bombay on Saturday for Portsmouth." Her arrival was reported at Malta on Dec 12, and then I cannot find her arrival at Portsmouth. She sailed for Queenstown on Jan 3, 1883.



If we knew what regiment Henry was in ...

Richard, did Henry *leave for* India on 17 Nov 82, or *arrive in* India on that date?

Richard, ya just don't seem to get it.

You don't pick somebody and work forward. You start with what you have, what you *know*, and work backward.

So here's some news.

"1876 His first marriage to Elizabeth Purnell on the 17th April 1876 in Woolwich."

If I'm not mistaken, this is the very first we have heard of this??? (Along with some of the rest)

Do you have that marriage certificate? (I assume you do, since you have the date - unless that's from the military records.) Does it state a name and occupation for Henry's father? And Henry's age.

It would also be very useful to know Elizabeth Purnell's age, father's name and occupation.

It's the old thing: we *have* to get certificates in order to know where to go. And you have to tell us what the information on them is if we are to help at all!

We need to find them in 1881 - they were in England then, have I got it right? This is our only chance of a confirmed sighting of Henry in a census! -- to see what it says for age and place of birth. And knowing Elizabeth's personal details (with her age and father's name we can hope to find her in a previous census to get birthplace) will help look for the couple in 1881.


The problem remains:

"1853 Henry shows James Bird and Priscilla Adam as father and mother and date of birth as 20th July 1853."

-- we do not know that this is your Henry.

On Henry's marriage cert it states that James Bird father is deceased.

This is what I have done so far..........

England * James Bird is Henry Bird’s father born 1811 or 1827 ish in Birmingham (not completely sure )
1853 Henry shows James Bird and Priscilla Adam as father and mother and date of birth as 20th July 1853.
1870 Henry enlisted in the Royal artillery on the 21st July 1870 at Lambeth, he was 17.
He served 163 days before being sent off to India……………………………………
India
1874 *Henry spent approximately four years before returning to England.
1876 *Henry had attained the rank of corporal.
England
1876 His first marriage to Elizabeth Purnell on the 17th April 1876 in Woolwich.
India
1882 *Henry went back to India on the 17 Nov 1882 and took Elizabeth with him.
1883 They had a son William John born 27th March 1883 in Peshawar.
1883 Unfortunately William died on 16th April 1883 followed by Elizabeth on 23rd May 1883 both at Peshawar.
1885 Henry then married Annie Ellen Williams 27th October 1885 at Jullunder. She was 21 and he was 33.
1885 At the time Henry was serving with R. Battery 2nd Bde Royal artillery.
1886 They had a son William Henry 9th June 1886 at Jullunder.
*Henry 33 years old at this time – son was – William John from first marriage to ELIZABETH PURNELL on 17th April 1876 in Woolwich - this son died on 16th April 1883 (aged 7 years) , Elizabeth Purnell died 23rd May 1883
*Henry’s – second marriage to ANNIE ELLEN WILLIAMS on 27th October 1885 produced their son William Henry

Henry joined the RA on the 21/07/1870 at Lambeth Police Station UK

Janey I don't think any of these are my ancestors

Hi again

I think the marriage in India has a mistake in Annie's name but I think it is her.

The Attestation papers that I have show Henry Bird from Bishops Stortford, near the town of Cambridge, Cambridgeshire, aged 17 years and 11months, occupation, groom. He signed up for the Army on the 20th July 1870 which makes him born around 1852.
Is the County of Cambridgeshire near Warwickshire?

I have no real proof what the exact year of birth is for James Bird yet. I think it must be around 1827-8

But going from the Birth Cert of my grandfather Herbert showing that his father was Henry Bird and mother Annie Ellen Williams. Henry was 33years and 4 months old, Annie 21 years old. So if this was in 1885 it would make James Bird the father around 1827 ish. or thereabouts.

Just to note that Richard has missed a child -- these are the two in the IGI:

1. William Henry Bird - Christening: 15 AUG 1886 Jullundur, , West Bengal, India
2. Florence Sophia Bird - Christening: 05 OCT 1892 Bareilly, , West Bengal, India
(possibly died in infancy/childhood?)

Someone else does have son Herbert, and someone else may have son Arthur, in their trees. They're known to you, Richard?

ANOTHER pm sent to Richard to try and get him back on board.

No, no sign of him after 1871 - and no death either.

I agree, an ag lab can easily become a groom.

What am I doing wrong today?? I didn't find that death at FreeBMD, I swear, and now I do!

So that father died when that Henry was very young.

Any luck finding the Henry doing anything after 1871?

England & Wales, FreeBMD Death Index: 1837-1915
about William Bird
Name: William Bird
Year of Registration: 1855
Quarter of Registration: Jan-Feb-Mar
District: Cricklade
County: Wiltshire
Volume: 5a
Page: 19 (click to see others on page)

Bird is a bit of a Wiltshire name. I'm having a look at this one -- people whose fathers died when they were young often had no idea what the father's name, let alone occupation, was.

Giving the father's occupation as the same as the groom's on the marriage certificate can indicate just that fact: that the groom had no real idea. (Or concealment: my famous Ernest called his fake father a cook like himself when he married, and his real father was no such thing.)


Births Jun 1852
BIRD Henry Cricklade 5a 29


1851 household in Ashton Keynes, Wiltshire:

William Bird 35 - Agricultural Labourer
Elizabeth Bird 43
Sarah Ann Bird 12
William Bird 9
George Bird 6


1861 in Leigh, Wiltshire:

Betty Bird 55 - laundress
Sarah Ann Bird 21
Henry Bird 6


1871 in Purton, Wiltshire:

John Curtis 38
Sarah Ann Curtis 32 (Bird)
William Curtis 6
Alfred Curtis 2
Eliza Ann Curtis 3 months
Henry Bird 19 - brother in law - Ag Lab


1881, 1891 - no sign of him that I see (and no marriage or death in Cricklade reg dist)


I still think an agricultural labourer who joined the army might well have become a groom.


Edit - a gazillion people have that Henry in their trees, born either 1852 (correct) or 1855 (census, incorrect) in Leigh. So it should be an easy trick to rule him out, by contacting a couple of them!

Richard - do you know the two people who have Richard Bird [edit - of course I meant *Henry* Bird] 1853 and 1856 Birmingham in their trees?

Back to the James in Wiltshire.

In 1861 he has a son Henry aged 14 (1847).
In 1871 that Henry is a baker, aged 22 (1849).
In 1881 he's a biscuit maker, aged 33 (1848), in Berkshire, with wife Ellen.
In 1891 he's still in Berkshire with ellen.

So we can rule that James out too!

And I'd looked for him and not found him ... granted, I wandered off to do something else before trying hard ... Oh, I see now, I was using the wrong approx birthdate ...

Well, that's him ruled out, and that's always a good thing!