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Hi Janey
Here is all the info I have to date.

1828? James Bird - Great Great Grandfather
Birmingham
1849 Marries Priscilla Adam on the 12th November, Aston Juxta, UK Birmingham
1851 James Jr. is born Birmingham
1853 Henry is born on the 20th July Birmingham
1856 Mary is born Birmingham
1858 William John is born Birmingham
1866 Laura is born Birmingham
1868 Catherine is born Birmingham
1861 Gold cutter/Jeweller Birmingham
1871 Jeweller Birmingham
1875 Priscilla Adam dies aged 47 Birmingham
1891 When did James Bird die?

GGRAND Father Henry Bird 1853 - 1904 Birmingham
1870 Enlists in RA 21st July Military No. 12021 Lambeth, serves 163 days
1870 Leaves for India on the 31st Dec Spends 4 years in India
1875 Arrives in the UK on the 2 January Stays in UK for 6 years
1876 Marries Elizabeth Purnell 17th April in Woolwich Woolwich UK
1882 Returns to India with Elizabeth 17th Nov Peshewar
1883 Their son William John Bird is born 27th March Peshewar
1883 William John dies of convulsions 16th April 1883 Peshewar
1883 Elizabeth Purnell dies on 23rd May 1883 acute diahorrea Peshewar
1884 Henry Bird now is a widower serving in the Royal Battery 2nd Brigade Royal artillery Peshewar
1885 Henry marries Annie Ellen Williams, born 1864 on the 27th Oct SECOND MARRIAGE INDIA Father is William Williams
1886 Their son William Henry Bird is born on the 9th June Jullundur, Peshewar
1886 William Henry is baptised on the 15th of August 1886 Jullundur, Peshewar
1888 Arthur Bird is born Jullundur, Peshewar
1889 Herbert Bird is born on 27th July Bareilly
1889 Herbert Bird is Baptised on the 13th August Bareilly
1904 Henry Bird dies on the 21st of June from chronic alcoholism Bareilly, Born 1853 - 1904 died

My Grand Father HERBERT BIRD b1889 - India d1956 Western Australia

Hope this is of help
Richard

MM --

(a) My Charlotte Papworth was all wet - I do think I clicked on the wrong one when I decided which to go for and copied w/o reading -- see my edit in that post - yours fits well, she may have been the one I *meant* to copy. ;)

(b) They weren't in Lambeth for sure until 1861 - but there are children born in Elsenham, Essex, after 1851, in the 1861 census. They were rather long gone from Hertfordshire - married in Huntingdonshire 1841, in fact.

Deaths Sep 1853
Bird Charlotte Lambeth 1d 221

-- very shortly after the Henry birth?

I think we're on entirely the same page, with the nuance as to when Charlotte died, when/whether James married Ann.

Richard, if you are out there
can you please give us all the info on the marriage of Henry and Elizabeth

names, occupations, father's names, occupations, addresses, and witnesses for both Bride and Groom

according to your time line they should be in England in the 1881 census, but I can't pin them down.

knowing when and where Elizabeth Purnell was born may help.

Also it would be unusual for the first child to be born so long after the marriage, if we assume that William John was born in 1883, SO were there any other children from this marriage???

Cracking the 1881 census may be the key to solving the mystery!

Also I take it that on the marriage cert of Henry and Annie, that Henry is listed as being a widower???

Can you also confirm when / if the family returned to England, are they on the 1901 /1911 census?

As has been pointed out, we need concrete data from which to work back from.

Janey we have some slight differences of opinion on this family.

I don't find a Charlotte Bird dying in a reasonable place until the one in Bishops Stortford in Sep 1856. So a marriage for James to an Ann needs to be after this, hence the one I found in 1858 to Ann Want.

Why do you not like this, Janey? They were not in Lambeth for sure until 1861.

Did you not like my Charlotte Papworth in 1841 age 25? I thought that was a fair shot, right age, just before her marriage to James.

No doubt you will assimilate all this faster that I can do, and throw out the dross.

I've remedied my wrong 1841 Charlotte with an edit, Madmeg. That post of mine did have the 1841 marriage in it ...

I think the 1854 marriage in Lambeth, right after the corresponding Charlotte death in Lambeth, fits best for James's second marriage -- if they married, of course.

Elsenham is in Saffron Waldron reg dist, btw; I checked/noted that some time ago.

I'm quite satisfied with the idea that by the time Henry married in India he had no clue what his father's occupation was, and may not ever have had. He simply assigned his father the same occupation as himself, just as my gr-grfather did in 1883.

I would also find it entirely reasonable in the circumstances if this Henry lied about his age by a year to join the army. His sister was a domestic servant in another household at the age of 12 in 1871. I don't expect he had a lot of career opportunities or an easy life (and he might have had a wicked stepmother!).

No sign of a Henry Bird born Essex, living London, that fits in 1871 (Janey might have said that already) - so the big question is, is this Richard's Henry? He's only 7 in 1861 so hasn't got an occupation. He seems to have added a year to his age if he's the one who joined up in 1870, and he's in India by the 1871 England and Wales census.

If he's the right one, father James died 1866 Lambeth, the death cert might tell us that he was a groom by then, having been a gardener and a cowman previously.

Still need those marriage details of Henry and Elizabeth Purnell, Richard.

My knowledge of London is worse, but Lambeth is pretty close to Wandsworth. Marriage of James Bird to Ann Want, Sep 1958 (Oops, 1858). Only one female to two males through.

Seems likely that the Henry born Dec 1853 is the son of James and Charlotte, with baby Margery/Mary Ann born to new wife Ann in 1860. It's Mary Ann, b June 1860, Lambeth.

England & Wales, FreeBMD Death Index: 1837-1915
about Charlotte Bird
Name: Charlotte Bird
Year of Registration: 1856
Quarter of Registration: Jul-Aug-Sep
District: Bishops Stortford
County: Essex, Hertfordshire
Volume: 3a
Page: 126 (click to see others on page)

My knowlege of "Southern England" is pathetic. Elsenham is Essex but right next to Bishops Stortford and Saffron Waldron.

1841 England Census
about Charlotte Papworth
Name: Charlotte Papworth - Servant
Age: 25
Estimated birth year: abt 1816
Gender: Female
Where born: Huntingdonshire, England

Civil parish: St John
Hundred: Huntingdon Borough
County/Island: Huntingdonshire
Country: England

Registration district: Huntingdon
Sub-registration district: Huntingdon
Neighbors: View others on page
Household Members: Name Age

Just to remind ourselves, marriage of James Bird to Charlotte Papworth, Dec 1841, Huntingdonshire.

I'm very pleased with myself with the James I have my eye on now.

Here's the coincidental kicker - his mother actually was Charlotte, I think: the Charlotte who was wife of father James in 1851 and probably died in 1854 in Lambeth. There is a possible James Bird + Anne Williams marriage in Lambeth in 1854, but no luck so far tracing her.

There is a James Bird in 1841 of the right age, ag lab, in Much Hadlam, Hertfordshire - in Bishops Stortford reg dist.

Uh oh. You know who that Charlotte was? Charlotte wife of James in Elsenham in 1851, James who was in Lambeth with son Henry in 1861?

Remember Charlotte Papworth?


1841:

There is a Charlotte Papworth in Warboys, Huntingdonshire, aged 14, which rules her out unless the age is incorrect (she is out of order in the household list so may have been some relation other than daughter). She could be this one, in the same reg dist as Warboys - St Ives:

Name: Charlotte Papworth
Age: 12
Estimated birth year: abt 1829
Where born: Huntingdonshire, England
Civil parish: Somersham
County/Island: Huntingdonshire

[edit - oops, Madmeg has the better/right one below -- I clicked the wrong one, or lost my mind, or something - this one is even more too young!]


1851:

Name: Charlotte Bird
Age: 34
Estimated birth year: abt 1817
Relation: Wife
Spouse's name: James
> Where born: Warboys, Huntingdonshire, England
Civil parish: Elsenham
County/Island: Essex


Marriages Dec 1841
BARNES Catharine Huntingdon 14 335
> BIRD James Huntingdon 14 335
HUMFREYS Elizabeth Huntingdon 14 335
LAMB Charles Huntingdon 14 335
PACK Robert Huntingdon 14 335
> PAPWORTH Charlotte Huntingdon 14 335


Do all roads lead to Rome? ;)

For some reason, Richard has opened his tree to me. I notice on there he says that William John died aged 1 year and 1 month old - so yet another date to contend with!

I think the next thing is to scrutinise the details of the marriage to Elizabeth Purnell, which we have already asked Richard for.

RICHARD - please give us both groom's and bride's ages, fathers' names and fathers' occupations (and whether deceased), and names of witnesses.

"The Attestation papers that I have show Henry Bird from Bishops Stortford, near the town of Cambridge, Cambridgeshire, aged 17 years and 11months, occupation, groom. He signed up for the Army on the 20th July 1870 which makes him born around 1852."

I just wanted to note that "my" new Henry, in Lambeth, wasn't born in Hertfordshire, but his mother Ann was, per the 1861 census. Seems a bit coincidental, with them being in Lambeth.

And why would someone so young from Bishops Stortford sign up at the police station in Lambeth if his family weren't living in Lambeth?

There is indeed a possible birth:

Births Jun 1852
Bird Henry Bishop Stortford 3a 163

although he would have turned 18 by July 1870.

There's also:

Births Jun 1853
Bird John Henry Bps Stortford 3a 169

Neither of them is in evidence in 1861.

"My" Henry was in Lambeth in 1861, but born in Essex. It's conceivable that he thought he was born where his mother was - or that after his father's death he spent time with relations in Hertfordshire ...

In 1851, I'm thinking that this James Bird - cow man - was in Elsenham, Essex, married to Charlotte, with a batch of kids. There are Charlotte deaths in 1853 in Lambeth and 1856 in Bishop Stortford ...

Yes. Emily Bird, born in Elsenham, Essex, the youngest child in 1851, aged 2, is a servant in Lambeth in 1861 (age is mistranscribed as 18, dob 1843, when it's really 12).

Did James meet Ann in Bishops Stortford, and could that explain a Henry born in Essex thinking he was born in Bishops Stortford?


At least my theories don't have people being in two places at once!!

You do have his death William John Bird Peshawar 1883 477 from the FMP overseas deaths.

I googled Peshawar graveyards. There is a lot of information but when you search by surname Bird there is no match.

Right, so William John Bird, son of Henry and Elizabeth, was hardly 7 years old when he died in 1883 --

-- *unless* he had not been christened earlier and it was done in anticipation of death.

The birth and death [edit - I meant baptism, of course] the same day in that record are unusual -- but that too could have been because of the expectation he would not survive.

William John Bird Pedigree
Male

Event(s):
Birth:
27 MAR 1883
Christening:
27 MAR 1883 Peshawar, , West Bengal, India
Death:
Burial:

Parents:
Father: Henry Bird Family
Mother: Elizabeth

Messages:
Extracted birth or christening record for the locality listed in the record. The source records are usually arranged chronologically by the birth or christening date.

Source Information:
Batch No.: Dates: Source Call No.: Type: Printout Call No.: Type:
C750291

I added that record from FIBIS a while back in the thread ... suggesting that the "S" was perhaps a mistranscription ...

Presidency of Marriage BENGAL
Marriage Year 1885
Husband First Names Henry
Husband Surname Bird
Wife First Names Annie S.
Wife Surname Williams
Prefix N1
Source Year 1885
Volume Number 194
Folio 231a
LDS Film Reference 510877

To keep the sons and wives straight:

1. William John (son of Elizabeth) died 16th April 1883 (aged 7 years) - *cannot* have been born 27th March 1883

2. William Henry (son of Ann) born 9th June 1886 at Jullunder


Presumably #1 was born in England. This is the only birth that fits in England:

Births Mar 1876
BIRD William John Hungerford 2c 265

from FIBIS website
Burial Presidency BENGAL
Burial Year 1918
First Names Annie E
Surname BIRD
Volume Number 429
Folio 136
LDS Film Reference 0498553
Source Name Index to burials 1908-1918
Source Year 1918

Burial Presidency BENGAL
Burial Year 1883
First Names william john
Surname bird
Volume Number 184
Folio 135
LDS Film Reference 0510870
Source Name Baptisms, marriages and burials volume
Source Year 1883

William Henry Bird Pedigree
Male

Event(s):
Birth:
09 JUN 1886
Christening:
15 AUG 1886 Jullundur, , West Bengal, India
Death:
Burial:

Parents:
Father: Henry Bird Family
Mother: Ann

Messages:
Extracted birth or christening record for the locality listed in the record. The source records are usually arranged chronologically by the birth or christening date.

Source Information:
Batch No.: Dates: Source Call No.: Type: Printout Call No.: Type:
C750277