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Hi Margaret to answer your question re
Who registered the birth of your Thomas Henry in October 1853? If it was Charlotte - problem solved!

From my copy of the Entry of Birth Cert. it shows as the signature of Registrar as a Rob Percival in 1853 and it says residence of informant (Charlotte Bird mother) Colin's Cross Bishop's Stortford.

I have also found on a cert that I just received that Charlotte's mother was a Charlotte Matlock. The marriage Cert of James and Charlotte show a Robert Sisman and Charlotte Matlock as witnesses.

Wots that with Nick Barrett? Do you know I have never once seen the programme? Didn't even know it existed until about 3 months ago, still not seen it.

Heir Hunters quite interests me.

"JAMES. Birth cert of Mary A Bird and death Cert of James Bird are both needed."

Heh, MM. I think that will be:

RICHARD. Birth cert of Mary A Bird and death Cert of James Bird are both needed.


I don't know about James being a coachman. *Cow* man in 1851.

Hey, maybe the Ann in 1901 was yet another one ...


Lots o' people get it wrong. I found what Nick Barrett didn't a while back (and the poster let us know today, how I'd beaten out Nick on something that really wasn't very danged difficult.)

Glad you agree with my idea Janey, came to me in a moment of inspiration whilst staring at it all!

Oh, Janey, I am still bothered by the ages of Ann. I am happy with her employer adding a few years on in 1851, but not so happy with her chopping 10 years off between 1861 and 1901. Will leave that for now though.

Yep. I imagined James marrying Anne Williams who already had a son Henry, and her dying, and him then marrying Ann Want. Crikey, Unravel that lot! There was time for all that to happen. Problem is we only see what is on the census every 10 years - a lot can happen in between.

Oh, I don't know about James not being a groom. But if he were my direct ancestor (and at this point we are assuming he is) I would want his death cert anyway. He was a coachman in 1851? Surmising....

He was a groom on Henry's first marriage, was he not? I have forgotten now.

JAMES. EDIT, Sorry, Richard. Pulled up on that! Birth cert of Mary A Bird and death Cert of James Bird are both needed.

And in answer your earlier question, yes, your uncle got it wrong. He should have come to us first, but we probably didn't exist then.

I completely agree about the Mary A Bird birth certificate -- I'd forgotten all about her.

That will give Ann's birth surname which will either match or not with one of the marriages. If it doesn't, then either

- Ann and James didn't marry
or
- Ann had been previously married, and finding that marriage would give an idea of what a hypothetical child of hers born c1852 would have been named

Actually, it could be both of the above. ;) Ann could have been still married to someone else and thus not married James.


But I still just hugely doubt that James Bird was ever a groom. ;)

That was Henry's occupation *in the military*. Which he joined at 17ish. It's likely an occupation he acquired in the military, rather than by inheritance.

I have a different suggestion to Janey's. Rather than getting the marriage cert to Ann Want. To find out who the Ann is in 1861, I would get the birth cert of little Mary A Bird, Jun 1860, Lambeth, 1d/367. She might be Ann Want or Anne Williams. Or she might be Ann something else, and might never have actually married James. But it might give us a different surname to look for our Henry.

There is no birth of a Henry Want, but there are plenty of Henry Williamses.

I still prefer the Ann Want marriage (EDIT to that of the marriage to Anne Williams), but it is not impossible that Charlotte died in Lambeth September 1853, after giving birth to Henry in September 1853, and somebody nipped back to Bishop's Stortford to register his birth in October (as was the law).

Oh, Richard, you can answer this. Who registered the birth of your Thomas Henry in October 1853? If it was Charlotte - problem solved!

I would still get the death cert of James Bird, 1866, to see if he was a groom or similar, cos it is his last job that Henry is likely to have remembered being age 13, rather than what he did when he was age 7.

Ok thanks will look into that

Just to be absolutely sure ...

It's possible that the Thomas Henry Bird died in infancy and the death wasn't registered.

I'd find out who 2nd wife Ann was, which would mean starting with the Ann Want certificate I think, to check it was the same James. If not, the earlier James Bird + Ann certificate.

I don't see a Henry Want birth to match well, and she probably was Ann Want, so that seems an unlikely scenario - that he was a step-Bird - but I'd want to rule it out. What went on between 1851 and 1861 is important to know for sure. It's even possible that Ann Want was her married name, she'd been married before marrying James Bird, and she had a child before her first marriage!

Ascertaining the date of Charlotte's death would be good too -- which again would mean starting with the later Charlotte Bird death, hoping it would give info to show it was the right one, and if not, then the earlier one.

You'll have to go back through the last couple of pages to get the James Bird + Ann marriages and Charlotte Bird deaths registration data. ;)

Sounding good Janey, so do we go down the James Bird track where Charlotte Papworth is in the picture, and follow that? The various copies of Certs I have show James (coachman) and Charlotte married in 1841 and in 1853 produce a Thomas Henry Bird born at Colins Cross, Bishop's Stortford, Counties of Herts. and Essex. On the Marriage Cert I have a Joseph Bird (labourer) as Jame's father. James Papworth (labourer) as Charlotte's father.

Thanks again for the great work!

"I am starting to agree that James and Priscilla are are not my ancestors and that my uncle has the wrong Birth Certificate of Henry Bird but I can't help wondering as my father always said the UK connection were jewellers."

I think you might be trapped in the circle that many people find themselves in. "Petitio principii" is the formal term -- begging the question, or arguing in a circle. Assuming a premise that is in fact the thing that needs to be proved. ;)

Your father may have got the "jewellers" notion from your uncle, or they got it from a common source. It may not be genuine oral family history. It may be that someone lighted on that Birmingham Henry at some point and adopted him into the family and made him part of the oral history, without having a genuine basis for it -- just making the assumption based on birthdate and father's name.

The basic fact is: that Henry, son of James and Priscilla, was in Birmingham in 1871. He did not join the army in Lambeth in 1870, and did not travel to India 6 months later -- or he wouldn't have been in the 1871 census with his parents in Birmingham!

If we are (as we seem to be) absolutely positive that your Henry joined the army in Lambeth in 1870, and travelled to India 6 months later, then your Henry is not Henry son of James and Priscilla in Birmingham.

Because no Henry could have been in two places at once at the time of the 1871 census! ;)

AuntySherlock I have sent an email to GRO re the cert in question and am waiting a reply.
Many thanks for that tip.
Richard

Girls I am completely confused now!!
But please don't give up on me yet!

Sorry Janey I'm not ignoring you just that so much info to go through! I have posted to you re what you said on page 6.
I am starting to agree that James and Priscilla are are not my ancestors and that my uncle has the wrong Birth Certificate of Henry Bird but I can't help wondering as my father always said the UK connection were jewellers.
Anyway I realise you are an expert on these matters and I am interested to see where this all leads.
Many thanks
Richard

OMG Janey you have another idea! I don't think you're being ignored, I think we're all exhausted.

Wot?

btw, one other possibility did occur to me -- that Henry was a son of James Bird's second wife Ann, who was very young when James and Ann partnered, and took his stepfather's surname and used it when he enrolled and then married. To pursue that possibility further we'd have to know definitely who Ann was.

Are you saying he was son of Ann and not of James? And not of Charlotte?

Back to the drawing board! It is Sunday night here in the normal world, some of us would like to go to sleep.

Drawing board.

Hi Janey
This looks right to me re Elizabeth Purnell. I am puzzled now that my Henry wasn't from Birmingham. I am wondering now if these Certs that I have have been obtained correctly for the correct family!

I have found a copy of my grandfather Herbert Bird's MARRIAGE Cert in Calcutta, India and on there it shows Henry Thomas Bird as his father but no occupation shown. On another BIRTH Cert of my grandfather Herbert Bird, it shows Henry Bird (English) and Annie Ellen Williams (Eurasian) as his parents. Occupation of Henry as Sergeant R.A. 12021

On a copy of Henry's Birth Cert. obtained in 1962 it shows James Bird (Jeweller) and Priscilla Adams ( no occupation) as parents to Henry, (no middle name) Bird born 20th July 1852 in St Thomas Birmingham, registered in Birmingham.
I am starting to wonder if my uncle who did this research years ago got it right!
I really appreciate all the work you are doing on this.
Best wishes
Richard

Well, District Nurse was probably a lot different from just Nurse, though I might have a dig around at the District Nurse before giving up on her.

So I think we are down to very educated guesses. And why not? Well, my female cat jumped over your fence and you have a tom cat, and my cat has kittens, so they are the kittens of your tomcat. Obvious. Sorry for the digression. But Richard, what I am saying is that we don't have anything FOR CERTAIN to tie down your Henry. We DO have things we definitley reject, i.e. Henry's lot are not the Birmingham crew, definitely not.

Henry joined up in Lambeth, so must have been living there, and we have found a suitable man. He has a father James, a land-worker of various sorts, which fits the description on both Henry's marriages, as near as we can say. We have found the connection with Bishops Stortford through this Henry and his mother. Pity that the Henry birth we (well, Richard) have found is Thomas Henry, that knocks a few percentage points off the reliability. But lots of people were registered with names that they didn't use. I'd have preferred a plain Henry, but there ain't one.

Unless anyone can think of anything more, I think we have exhausted this one. Richard, I don't think you will have any more proof of Henry's parents than we have surmised so far.

A bit disappointing, but at least you are not scooting off to Birmingham on the wrong line (which it is, I hope you know see that).

I gather I'm being ignored.

You can now eliminate James and Priscilla as your ancestors do you agree?


btw, one other possibility did occur to me -- that Henry was a son of James Bird's second wife Ann, who was very young when James and Ann partnered, and took his stepfather's surname and used it when he enrolled and then married. To pursue that possibility further we'd have to know definitely who Ann was.

Hi Margaret it only says "Spinster" on the Marriage Cert for Elizabeth Purnell age 21 years

And the tap releases one more drop of information:

"I found out from Elizabeths Death Cert that (she) Elizabeth Purnell was born in Chilcompton, Somerset. "

Yes, that is the one I posted on page 6, niece in Berkshire aged 16 in 1871 - born in Chilcompton - whom Madmeg has traced back.

I wasn't able to identify her in 1881 except for the "district nurse" in Marylebone possibility. "Nurse" in 1871 more likely meant children's nurse (domestic) I would think, though.

England & Wales, FreeBMD Marriage Index: 1837-1915
about James Ridgeon
Name: James Ridgeon
Year of Registration: 1863
Quarter of Registration: Oct-Nov-Dec
District: St George Hanover Square
County: London, Middlesex
Volume: 1a
Page: 395 (click to see others on page)

Spouse Sarah Purnell