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Don't worry James, we will get there. I just thought that Barbara had a grasp of it, and I am drawing diagrams all over the place and not getting it right.

JJk 1 yes my father in law born 1935
JJK 2 born 1914 married 1935(alice rowe) died 1935
JK 3 born? was decd by 1935(as per marriage cert of jjk2 and alice)
jk 3 was 21 when he married Amelia (re maureeninNY findings see previous entry)

I need to give them numbers...


James John Kelly - 1
James John Kelly - 2
James Kelly -3

JK 1 is your father in law born 1935

JK 2 is his father who married Alice 1935 and also died same year.

JK 3 is your father in law's grandad who was deceased by 1935

My question is ... who was 21 when he got married in 1917 ?
If that was JK 3 then we are looking for someone in their 30's max at death, in which case that death cert is wrong one.

i am sorry its such a mess
:(

Thank you Micheal
is 53 his age because he was (if we have the right one) 21 when he got married in 1917?

For some reason I can't get my head round this. James, leave it to Barbara for now, who seems to be on a roll that I can't get to grips with. My brain has gone AWOL.

Barbara, if you could do a quick summary, i might be able to join in.

It could be it has been so hard getting my head round this one JJ kelly born in 1914 is my father in laws dad, but he died 6 weeks after my father in law was born so have no back ground on the family, so would be great to try and track any family if Amelia and James had any other children? i could try and get the birth cert for 1910 amelia but could be a different dad?
sorry meant to say thank you for all this info
edit so could be James child why were things so complicated

sorry, wrong one...
Meant this one ------------------------------------------------------------------------------

Deaths Mar 1917 --------------------------------------------------------------------------------
Kelly James 53 St.Geo.East 1c 408

He got married in 1912. i no this one is trouble?

Hi,
I figured out that it's Crellin Street,but naturally that one seems to be missing from the 1911. Here's Amelia with her brother:
1911 census transcription details for: 53 Martha St St Georges E
National Archive Reference: RG14PN1514 RG78PN53 RD19 SD1 ED16 SN109

Reg. District: St George in the East Sub District: St George and St John
Parish: St George in the East Enum. District: 16
Address: 53 Martha St St Georges E County: London
SMITH, William George Head Married
10 years M 34 1877 Butcher London
SMITH, Annie Matilda Wife Married
10 years F 35 1876 London
SMITH, William Henry Edward Son M 9 1902 London
SMITH, Thomas William Son M 8 1903 London
SMITH, James Henry Son M 4 1907 London
SMITH, Annie Elizabeth Louisa Daughter F 0 1911 London
SMITH, Amelia Sister Single F 21 1890 Rope Worker London
SMITH, Amelia Niece F 1 1910 London

(I wonder if the niece is Amelia's child?)
Maureen
Edit-yes,Amelia says she's had one child.

Possible ?

Deaths Mar 1902
Kelly James 40 St. Geo. East 1c 272

--------------------------------------------------------------------------------
No no no

on James j Kelly marriage cert in 1935 (father toJames kelly decd)it shows him living at 43 Martha street could this be the address that is unreadable?

Thank you that looks all correct been a hard one to track have other family members that lived at 43 martha street this seems to get more strange by the minute. do you no how i can find out when this james kelly died i no he had passed away by 1935 when his son james john kelly married
thank you once again.
also can i track his army records?
sorry seem to be asking all the time
Tracy

Name: Amelia Smith 53 Martha Street
Age: 21
Estimated birth year: abt 1891
Spouse Name: James Kelly Occ:Dock Labourer 43 Crellin?? Street
Spouse Age: 21
Record Type: Marriage
Event Date: 21 Jan 1912
Parish: St George in the East
County: Middlesex
Borough: Tower Hamlets
Father Name: George Smith Occ:Lighterman
Spouse Father Name: John Kelly deceased Occ:Carman
Witnesses were John Bennet and Esther Bennett

Maureen

Hi
Mad meg and Barbara from Yorkshire have been helping with this one was wondering if either on line have received certificates today James john kelly born 17/10/1914 to james kelly and Amelia Kelly (formerly smith) in st georges in the east father private army service corps and dock labourer on jj kelly marriage to alice rowe father listed as dock labourer dec'd thinking this must be right wondering what your thought on this are. death cert for jj kelly born 1914 died Nov 1935 age 21 should be correct age Cause of death was what i expected but no informant name as an inquest was held for cause of death
thanks for any feedback

Hi
Just to let you no i have ordered two cert James john Kelly Birth 1914 st George in the east 1c 455
and his death cert james J Kelly 1935 west ham 4a 87 thought it might have some information on his birth from the death cert also who might have registered his death? will fill you in once received.
Thank again
Tracy

Hey Margaret hope you got my pm this morning?
Thank you both for your time tonight just got back from the Hospital.
just did not want you to think i had left you with all the work on this tough Family history, if all thing ok with mum. will try and get back on line tomorrow, thank you again for your time.
Tracy.
xx

I think Tracy's going to have to take a gamble with that marriage and birth cert. She says James died before 1935, the closest I can find is this one, assuming he was born abt 1881:

England & Wales, Death Index: 1916-2005
about James M Kelly
Name: James M Kelly
Death Registration Month/Year: 1932 (March qtr)
Age at death (estimated): 49
Registration district: Bethnal Green
Inferred County: London
Volume: 1c
Page: 150

Not a clue if it might be him.

Hi Barbara, Walter Guerney was possibly a church member, drafted in to witness the marriage.

I don't think we'll get much further with this family unless James can dredge up any family stories.

Too many possibles I think.

I agree Margaret--even if the Birth and Marriage cert were sent for-- for the Kelly/Smith couple and child --and they were a "match" its still not certain that this James John Kelly is the right one for James / Tracys ancestor

I also can't find a Walter Guerney anywhere !!!!
All the best
Barbara