Find Ancestors

HI Barbara
thank you it just keeps getting better and better, received copy of marriage cert from Maureen, need to get some of this printed of so i can get my head together with it all and will hopefully over the weekend order the certificates.
hope you have a lovely bank holiday weekend.
Tracy
xx

PURE SPECULATION AGAIN Tracy--Maybe Johns Birth and 1881 census results ( Brother Henry with John and Eliza in 1901 census ) John's Siblings are on the Baptism records if you would like to see them.

Name: John Kelly
Record Type: Baptism
Date: 15 May 1864
Father's Name: John Kelly (Carman)
Mother's Name: Mary Ann Kelly
Parish: St Leonard Shoreditch
Borough: Hackney
County: London
Date of birth 17th April 1864
Address 7 William Street ?
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1881 Census --Household:

Name Relation Marital Status Gender Age Birthplace Occupation Disability
John KELLY Head M Male 46 Shoreditch Hawker
Mary A. KELLY Wife M Female 35 Brush Drawer
John KELLY Son Male 16 St Lukes Printer
James KELLY Son Male 14 St Lukes Rope Maker
Edward KELLY Son Male 11 Bethnal Green School
Henry KELLY Son Male 4 Bethnal Green
Thomas KELLY Son Male 1 Bethnal Green


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Source Information:
Dwelling 18 Half Nichol St
Census Place London, Middlesex, England
Family History Library Film 1341089
Public Records Office Reference RG11
Piece / Folio 0410 / 51
Page Number 42


Best wishes
Barbara xx

Williams (1900) Baptism ---As on 1901 and 1911 census with James (1890)

Name: William Kelly
Record Type: Baptism
Date: 10 Apr 1900
Father's Name: John Kelly ( DOCK Labourer)
Mother's Name: Eliza Ann Kelly
Parish: St Columba, Haggerston
Borough: Hackney
County: Middlesex

Date of Birth March 5th 1900

Address 10 Wilmer Gardens

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And sister Eliza Ann 1886 (as on 1901 census with Parents John and Eliza and siblings James, Ellen and William)

Name: Eliza Ann Kelly
Record Type: Baptism
Date: 7 Nov 1886
Father's Name: John Kelly (Labourer)
Mother's Name: Eliza Ann Kelly
Parish: St Mark, Shoreditch
Borough: Hackney
County: Middlesex

Date of birth October 12th 1886

Address 5, Wellington Street

Ellen Elizabeth Kelly who was a wittness ar her Mums second marriage (i think)

Her Baptism record

Name: Ellen Elizabeth Kelly
Record Type: Baptism
Date: 27 Apr 1894
Father's Name: John Kelly ( Labourer)
Mother's Name: Eliza Ann Kelly
Parish: St Thomas, Bethnal Green
Borough: Tower Hamlets
County: Middlesex

Address 6 Diss Street --same address as 1891 census on page 3.

Her birth Date 8 January 1894

Sorry love I submitted the last post twice--so thats what the delete is
Barbara x

Another cert not needed !!

Name: James Kelly
Record Type: Baptism
Date: 2 Feb 1890
Father's Name: John Kelly (Labourer)
Mother's Name: Eliza Ann Kelly
Parish: St Thomas, Bethnal Green
Borough: Tower Hamlets
County: Middlesex

Birth 6 January 1890

Address 5 Wellington Street , Kingsland Road
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So you could try for the death cert in 1932 to see who the informant was ( and HOPEFULLY it will be the right one )
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I think I would get Annie and Walter William L GURNEY marriage to see if that holds any clues !! See who her father was on the marriage cert.

Will have another look round --
Best wishes
Barbara xx

Tracy This looks like Eliza Ann Loake / Kelly second marriage

Name: Eliza Ann Kelly --widow
Age: 45
Estimated birth year: abt 1870
Spouse Name: Benjamin Robert Hane --widower
Spouse Age: 50
Record Type: Marriage
Event Date: 25 Dec 1915
Parish: St Saviour, Hoxton
County: Middlesex
Borough: Hackney
Father Name: Charles Loake --Tailor (dec)
Spouse Father Name: Alfred Hane -- Cabinet maker (dec)

wittnesses
Ellen Elizabeth Kelly
Francis Bowin ( or Bowen)
address of both bride and groom 89 Fellon (or Felton) Street
Just looked for this to see if we could get anymore clues --but not really

Barbara xx

Hi Tracy

You don't really need Amelia and James marriage cert ---Maureen put all details on page 2 of your "thread" and his Dad was John. So don't waste your money on that one --I am sure Maureen said if you "Personal Message" your e-mail to her she would send you the image of the cert through to you. (Sorry if I am wrong on this !!)

This is Eliza Loake and Johns marriage details

Name: Eliza Ann Loake
Age: 17
Estimated birth year: abt 1869
Spouse Name: John Kelly
Spouse Age: 22
Record Type: Marriage
Event Date: 17 Aug 1886
Parish: St Thomas, Bethnal Green
County: Middlesex
Borough: Tower Hamlets
Father Name: Charles Loake --- Tailor
Spouse Father Name: John Kelly --Hawker (Dec)

Wittnesses--Charles Loake and Henrietta Howsham

Address of Groom --33 Boundary Street ??
Brides Address --5 Wellington Street Hoxton

Let me get back to you on the other certs--I need to get my head round them again , because all the other info was pure speculation I would feel so guilty if you bought certs and they were the wrong ones !!!


Best wishes
Barbara xx

Hi
Think they are the right straws i am at work at the moment but JJK2 marraige was witnessed by his brother in law Frederick napper and walter Guerney which i think would be his uncle if your findings are right also jk3 was dec'd at there wedding. you did it, well done you, thank you thank you see post on here 29th march then 30th march can i smile now. need to sort some certificates out and which of all this infromation is relevent so we could have desendents alive from annie and walter how good would that be, so excited but must get back to work.
thank you so much.
Tracy
xxx
ok home from work was thinking of ordering the following cert.

marriage James Kelly 3 and Amelia Smith 1c 337 this will confirm parents (hopefully john Kelly )

birth James Kelly Shoreditch 1c 38 confirm parents also makes him 22 when married.

Birth Annie Kelly 1c 728 as birth cert of jjk2 shows mother as Amelia formerly Smith confirm parents

Death James Kelly 3 1932 1c 239 wont show as much tho

marriage of W Gurney and Annie Kelly 1c 479 i wonder who witnessed that as her dad and brother would have both passed away will be interesting

Should i order marriage john Kelly to Eliza Ann Loake 1c 542 or is that jumping a bit to far?
this is so exciting your the best
let me know what you think about the cert.
Tracy.
xx
p.s just putting it all together on paper 1891 1901 census john kelly jk4 listed as dock labourer, his son jk3 on the 1911 census is a porter, his son jjk2 marriage cert shows meat porter but he died as we know on the docks the jobs have to be connected?so dad and son are both porters.

Hi Tracy
Just wondered what you thought of this Death Index

(this birth index as I posted on page 3 of your thread)

Birth Index
Name: James Kelly
Year of Registration: 1890
Quarter of Registration: Jan-Feb-Mar
District: Shoreditch
County: London, Middlesex
Volume: 1c
Page: 38
--------------------------------------------------------

Death index

September (quarter) 1932
James Kelly
age 43
Stepney 1c 239
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I know its a year out on age --but death information is only as good as the informant !!

Clutching at straws, I know , !!!

Best wishes
Barbara

Hi Tracy
Just to let you know I am still looking --I THINK I may have found a "Tie in" with the Walter --witness on James and Alices marriage --see what you think !!

Birth
June 1907
Walter William L GURNEY
Kensington 1a 142


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Marriage
September 1936
Walter W L Gurney
Annie Kelly
Stepney 1c 479

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Death index
June 1957
Walter W L Gurney
age 50
Willesden 5f 207
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I wondered if ANNIE is James Kelly 2 sister ??? there is a birth index

Births Sep 1913

Annie Kelly
mothers maiden name -- Smith
Mile End 1c 728
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This MAYBE Walter in 1911 census

1911 census transcription details for: 29 Morris Street St George in the East

National Archive Reference:

RG14PN1518 RG78PN53 RD19 SD1 ED20 SN108


Reg. District: St George in the East Sub District: St George and St John
Parish: St George in the East Enum. District: 20

Address: 29 Morris Street St George in the East
County: London


Name Relation Condition/
Yrs married Sex Age Birth
Year Occupation Where Born

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GURNEY, Walter Head Married M 27 1884 Horsekeeper Notting Hill Middlesex London

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GURNEY, Lillie Wife F 25 1886 Kensington Middlesex London

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GURNEY, Walter Son M 4 1907 Notting Hill London

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GURNEY, John Son M 2 1909 Notting Hill London

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Oh well love --sheer speculation again--but I am Trying to knock that Brick wall down lol !!!

I wondered if Walter and Annies marriage cert would give anymore clues ?? not too sure though !!

Best wishes
Barbara xx

HI Barbara
was worth a look, hope it did not waste to much of your time. thank you. Good name for 34 Martha Craze sure is making me crazy.
yes did not think of that regarding Amelia, i no lots of things were not as they seemed i have come across a fair bit of that with my other trees. Brain is definitely doing overtime trying to think of different ways to find them. have we come to our final brick wall?
Regards
Tracy
xx

HI Tracy

If you do get Amelias birth cert (the daughter) I'm not sure it will have a fathers name on it--However you never know it may have--but if she was James daughter and his name WAS on the cert I would have thought baby Amelia would have been called KELLY !!

Best wishes
Barbara xx

Sorry love must get new glasses I put on 33 Martha street on post

This is the other at 34 Martha Street

1911 census transcription details for: 34 Martha St St Georges E
National Archive Reference: RG14PN1514 RG78PN53 RD19 SD1 ED16 SN196


Reg. District: St George in the East Sub District: St George and St John
Parish: St George in the East Enum. District: 16

Address: 34 Martha St St Georges E County: London


Name Relation Condition/
Yrs married Sex Age Birth
Year Occupation, Where Born

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CRAZE, Emma Head Widow F 40 1871 Office Cleaner London St Georges
CRAZE, Emma Daughter Single F 19 1892 Squilt Ironer London St Georges
CRAZE, Thomas Son Single M 16 1895 Vanguard London St Georges
CRAZE, Mary Daughter Single F 14 1897 London St Georges
CRAZE, Charles Son M 12 1899 London St Georges

2 seperate familys in 34 Martha Street in 1911

1911 census transcription details for: 33 Martha St St Georges E
National Archive Reference: RG14PN1514 RG78PN53 RD19 SD1 ED16 SN126


Reg. District: St George in the East Sub District: St George and St John
Parish: St George in the East Enum. District: 16

Address: 33 Martha St St Georges E County: London


Name Relation Condition/
Yrs married Sex Age Birth
Year Occupation, Where Born

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PERKINS, John Head Married M 38 1873 Coal Dealer London E
PERKINS, Mary Ann Wife Married
20 years F 37 1874 London E
PERKINS, John Son Single M 17 1894 Coal Dealers Son London E
PERKINS, Richard Son M 12 1899 School London E
PERKINS, Thomas Son M 8 1903 London E
PERKINS, Alice Daughter F 1 1910 London E

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AND

1911 census transcription details for: 34 Martha St St Georges E
National Archive Reference: RG14PN1514 RG78PN53 RD19 SD1 ED16 SN195


Reg. District: St George in the East Sub District: St George and St John
Parish: St George in the East Enum. District: 16

Address: 34 Martha St St Georges E County: London


Name Relation Condition/
Yrs married Sex Age Birth
Year Occupation, Where Born

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WEDGE, John Head Married M 63 1848 General Carman St Georges E
WEDGE, Ann Wife Married
44 years F 64 1847 Bethnal Green E
WEDGE, Fred Son Single M 31 1880 General Carman St Georges E
WEDGE, Samuel Son Single M 27 1884 General Carman St Georges E

Number 43 in 1911

1911 census transcription details for: 43 Martha St St Georges E
National Archive Reference: RG14PN1514 RG78PN53 RD19 SD1 ED16 SN116


Reg. District: St George in the East Sub District: St George and St John
Parish: St George in the East Enum. District: 16

Address: 43 Martha St St Georges E County: London


Name Relation Condition/
Yrs married Sex Age Birth
Year Occupation, Where Born

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MIDDLEBROOK, Thomas Head Married
27 years M 52 1859 Carman London Shorditch
MIDDLEBROOK, Hannah Wife Married
27 years F 45 1866 London St Georges East
MIDDLEBROOK, Alic Daughter Single F 17 1894 London Poplar
MIDDLEBROOK, Herbeth Son Single M 15 1896 London Poplar
MIDDLEBROOK, Edward Son Single M 13 1898 School London Limehouse
MIDDLEBROOK, Fredrick Son Single M 7 1904 London Limehouse
TAGG, Lizzie Boarder Single F 18 1893 Servant Domestic London Limehouse
DICKEL, Conrad Head Married
8 years M 25 1886 Wall Paper Pattern Book Maker London Limehouse
DICKEL, Florence Wife Married
8 years F 27 1884 London St Georges in East
DICKEL, Harry Son Single M 8 1903 London Stepney
DICKEL, Sidney Son Single M 6 1905 London Stepney

Hi
Just another thought again about the Bennett's 59 Martha street witness at JK3 and Amelia wedding, i cant get it out of my head that you have it right, on JJK2 marriage cert address 43 Martha street, i no it is some years apart wedding and birth, but is there any way we can find out who was living in 43 and 34 Martha street in the 1911 census( 34 Martha has a link to another part of family explained in pm to Barbara previously). Also re above post what do you think about me getting above birth cert Amelia?
just a thought thank you again.
Tracy
xx

Hi
Thank you all for still looking, i am at work at the moment so have not got my paper work with me, i do not have any marriage cert for the kelly's so cant help there, but will order them if it will help, also was wondering about Amelia's first daughter if that certificate will help. sorry cant stay online work does not permit the use of internet for own use.
Thank you once again really appreciate this help.
Tracy
xx

Yawn. I thought I might stay up until 10pm here. Not a chance.

Remind me,though-in case it could be of use-I've got a few of that Kelly family's certs online (Eliza Ann,etc. Mum maiden name Loakes does re-marry).

Maureen

Hi Maureen
Thank you,
It is funny we can't seem to find JK 3 anywhere !! I know there was the one in 1911 census age 30 --but he was 10 years too old to be married to Amelia--I have had another look at the original image to see if it says 20 and not 30 but no it is a clear 30--so not been mistranscribed . and as I said before I have had the Army records inside out and upside down trying to find him !!!!

I am going to have a bash at the Bennett / Shields side of things--see if that brings anything to light --but I think it will be on Amelias side if it does !! but I think it will have to be tommorrow as my eyes are begining to droop.

Best wishes
Barbara xx