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thanks for your work ann

- wow this is muddling
- but fascinating
- I'll read it fresh tomorrow when I've a clearer head!

thinking back I never did find the baptism of the |Norman who died (at least I don't think I did - have not got my notes with me)
signing off for some time now - good luck

no it doesnt bother me,all i wanted to do was my family tree,didnt realise what my g grandparents had been up to,

- although the explanation at the Registrar's office is very tempting
- how many of the children were registered by the father?

my mum is quite shocked at this ,she keeps saying she was a strict catholic the priest called every sunday .
i had to say to her that they would not have told anyone that they were not married as it would of been a sin

So Elizabeth and Florence were with the Grindrods in 1901 and in 1911;
by 1911, Elizabeth has had two children;
but she has been married for 12 years, so might have had the first child before Florence?

Edit: Julie, just seen your post, will go back and read it properly ...
Are we then saying that her next child was Norman in 1915?

Had Norman's father married Mary in the meantime?

Well I missed that as I was typing away. Great stuff Ivy thanks.

So we still have the possibility that John married Elizabeth Cropper in 1898 and then couldn't marry Mary because he was already married.

With regard to mother's name on Norman's birth certificate, the simplest but possibly most unlikely explanation is that Kate Wolstenholme (who registered the birth) did not know the family and had to ask John what his wife's full name was. He answerered truthfully but without thinking "Elizabeth Cropper"

Another possibility is that the mother was a very young Florence Jones and the child was registered in her parent's names. I would think though that if he was named Norman after the first Norman that died, he was probably named in deference to John & Mary & was possibly born in their household.

See I can make it up as I go along!

I do have at least 2 instances in my family where the child of an unmarried mother was named after one of her siblings who had died in infancy.

Julie

ann its looking more like mary is his mum&used elizabeths name,unless elizabeth came back to oldham but no one knows of florence.


ivy my family are a pain,we have been trying to sort them out,&feel they are leading us a merry dance

No problem - just wish I knew what it meant .... I did read the whole thread a while back, but I don't seem to have retained much knowledge on the family!

Interesting - Elizabeth had only 2 children & 1 died!!!!!!!!!!

thanks for look up ivy

I think all our brains are pickled - maybe if we poickled them more in alcohol we might think of something!

my mistake boer war is why we cannot find him on 1901 cesus,he was in ww1 ,sorry pickled brain.

Head of household JG; b Rochdale, as are wife and son;
EJ "relative" b Royton, married 12 years, 2 children, one died
FJ "relative" b Crewe
AB boarder
FW "relative" b Rochdale

I thought the Boer war finished in 1902?

Any chance someone could look at the details of this family. In particular, birthplace's of Elizabeth & Florence Jones and what it says about marital status of Elizabeth.

1911 census person search
Your search has returned 6 results.
Search criteria used:
Registration district : Rochdale Last name of other in household : Grindrod
First name of other in household : Josepth
Institution,
Household
or Vessel Name Sort Birth
Year Age Sex Registration District County Household
Transcript Original
census
image
Household BOOTH, Arnett 1886 25 M Rochdale Lancashire VIEW VIEW
Household GRINDROD, Edmund 1884 27 M Rochdale Lancashire VIEW VIEW
Household GRINDROD, Jane 1860 51 F Rochdale Lancashire VIEW VIEW
Household JONES, Elizabeth 1871 40 F Rochdale Lancashire VIEW VIEW
Household JONES, Florence 1901 10 M Rochdale Lancashire VIEW VIEW
Household WILD, Frank 1907 4 M Rochdale Lancashire

Fortunately Joseph has a t in his name which helped to pin them down using the free search!

Julie,

maybe, but all the sons were the same,build&looks except sydney who was very slightly built ,i wonder if mary was his mum & if john was still married to elizabeth,she used her name as john was away when norman was born (in the boer war)

all I can think of is that he was actually an illegitimate son of John but and was adopted by him. Though this would mean that Elizabeth pretended to be married when registering him. That is why I would love to find his baptism.