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I do not think that is our family.

1861 census - household transcription
Person: WINDERS, John
Address: 10, Livsey Street, Elton
WINDERS, John Head Married M 30 1831 Spinner Cotton
Preston
Lancashire VIEW
WINDERS, Hannah Wife F 30 1831
Preston
Lancashire

1871 census - household transcription
Person: WINDERS, John
Address: Church Street, Elton, Bury


WINDERS, John Head M 43 1828 Lancashire VIEW
WINDERS, Ann Wife F 43 1828 Lancashire VIEW
WINDERS, Mary Ann Daughter F 10 1861 Lancashire VIEW
URMSTON, Sarah Lodger F 21 1850 Lancashire VIEW
MAKIN, Sarah Lodger F 17 1854 Lancashire

1881 census - household transcription
Person: WINDERS, John
Address: 15, Crostons Road, Elton

GORE, Ellen Head Widow F 61 1820 News Agent
Bury
Lancashire VIEW
GORE, Elizabeth A Daughter Single F 23 1858 Cotton Weaver
Bury
Lancashire VIEW
DEARDEN, Mary Daughter Widow F 34 1847 House Keeper
Bury
Lancashire VIEW
THOMPSON, Sarah Lodger Single F 35 1846 Cotton Spinner
Bury
Lancashire VIEW
WALKER, Jane Lodger Single F 22 1859 Cotton Weaver
Bury
Lancashire VIEW
WINDERS, John Lodger Married M 53 1828 Fireman
Preston
Lancashire VIEW
WINDERS, Mary A Lodger Single F 18 1863 Cotton Weaver
Bury
Lancashire

Ann
as far as I can see all the children bar Mary Ann died very yong.

Surname First name(s) Age District Vol Page

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Births Jun 1861 (>99%)
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WINDERS Joseph Bury 8c 451
WINDERS Mary Ann Bury 8c 451

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Deaths Sep 1861 (>99%)
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Winders Joseph Bury 8c 254

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Births Sep 1862 (>99%)
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WINDERS Rachel Bury 8c 417

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Deaths Sep 1862 (>99%)
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Winders Rachel Bury 8c 212

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Births Dec 1863 (>99%)
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WINDERS Clara Bury 8c 409

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Deaths Dec 1863 (>99%)
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Winders Clara Bury 8c 276

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Births Jun 1866 (>99%)
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WINDERS William Bury 8c 461

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Deaths Sep 1866 (>99%)
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Winders William 0 Bury 8c 284

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Births Sep 1867 (>99%)
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Winders Charles Bury 8c 458

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Deaths Sep 1867 (>99%)
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Winders Charles 0 Bury 8c 303

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Births Dec 1868 (>99%)
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WINDERS Anna Bury 8c 453

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Deaths Sep 1869 (>99%)
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Winders Hannah 0 Bury 8c 294

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Births Mar 1872 (>99%)
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Winders Emma Bury 8c 508

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Deaths Mar 1872 (>99%)
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WINDERS Emm 0 Bury 8c 352
WINDERS Emma 0 Bury 8c 352

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Marriages Sep 1886 (>99%)
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Winders Mary Ann Bury 8c 576

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Deaths Sep 1891 (>99%)
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WINDERS John 55 Bury 8c 351
Winders John 55 Bury 8c 354

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Deaths Jun 1897 (>99%)
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Winders Hannah 64 Bury 8c 366



On the marriage details John is described as of Parr. I do not know where Bury fits in geographically.

Can not find another marriage with similarly names people Smith, Thomas, Taylor etc on same day in Lancashire. Nearest is about two months or so on either side of the August 1887 date.

Following the thread. Somewhere there is a John William Winders who comes up in a search for William Winders. Could it be he interchanged his names.

Also Helen/Ellen. That is a possibility. I have a Hannah/Anna. They did drop the "H" when speaking.

I agree with asking about the original of Ellen and William's marriage. The other thing you could do is search the page on which the marriage is written and to see if any other marriage involved a Smith.

Oh can I do that on that link you sent me. I'll have a look.

Lancashire Birth indexes for the years: 1866
WINDERS William
Elton Bury
mmn = CHADWICK

all others also have mother's maiden name of Chadwick

from IGI

1. Clara Winders - International Genealogical Index
Gender: Female Christening: 14 DEC 1863 Elton, Lancashire, England
2. Rachel Winders - International Genealogical Index
Gender: Female Christening: 29 JUN 1862 Elton, Lancashire, England
3. Mary Ann Winders - International Genealogical Index
Gender: Female Christening: 23 JUL 1861 Elton, Lancashire, England

all children of John & Hannah

Rhondda
when you find us
Do you have William's (or John's) second marriage to Jane Hunter?

Norma has this tree too

Forget that one

he died

Births Jun 1866 (>99%)
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WINDERS William Bury 8c 461

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Deaths Sep 1866 (>99%)
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Winders William 0 Bury 8c 284

Other Winders births in Bury


Births Jun 1861 (>99%)
WINDERS Joseph Bury 8c 451
WINDERS Mary Ann Bury 8c 451

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Births Sep 1862 (>99%)
WINDERS Rachel Bury 8c 417

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Births Dec 1863 (>99%)
WINDERS Clara Bury 8c 409

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Births Jun 1866 (>99%)
WINDERS William Bury 8c 461

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Births Sep 1867 (>99%)
Winders Charles Bury 8c 458

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Births Dec 1868 (>99%)
WINDERS Anna Bury 8c 453

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Births Mar 1872 (>99%)
Winders Emma Bury 8c 508

I think this should be the next one to look at

Births Jun 1866 (>99%)
WINDERS William Bury 8c 461

Ann you are so right.

I am so grateful. If you could do that look up it would be fantastic

I am still looking at other trees. Again I am not sure that an error has been made and copied somewhere.

I wonder if Helen is ElleN?



JOHN WINDER Pedigree
Male Family

Marriages:
Spouse: HELEN HARRISON Family
Marriage: 27 NOV 1809 Saint Helens, Lancashire, England

: Source Call No.: Type: Printout Call No.: Type:

M036661

??????????

"I have Birth cert of William Winders born 21st Nov ********1893 19 Grafton Street.********* "

1891 census - household transcription
Person: WINDERS, Ellen
Address: *************19, Grafton Street, Eccleston, St Helens********
WINDERS, William Head Married M 23 1868 Coal Miner **MANCHESTER**

WINDERS, Ellen Wife Married F 22 1869 ***ASHTON***

WINDERS, Margaret Daughter Single F 2 1889
St Helens
Lancashire

There is no indication from what we know so far that Susan's family left St Helens.

I think from my contacts I have made I ruled out John with Elizabeth Dewhurst but I am not sure they all agree with each other. I have invited them on here to contribute but so far no one has. I will check again.

re death of Rhodda's Ann Winders in Prescot in 1848 / 49. Presumably no death cert as exact date not known.

Burial: 25 Jan 1848 St Mary (now St Helen), St Helens, Lancashire, England
Ann Winders -
Age: 19 days
Abode: Parr
Buried by: Edw. Carr
Register: Burials 1846 - 1850 from the Bishop's Transcripts, Entry 18
Source: LDS Film 1469036

Burial: 28 Mar 1849 St Mary (now St Helen), St Helens, Lancashire, England
Ann Winders -
Age: 39 years
Abode: St. Helens
Buried by: Thomas Jump
Register: Burials 1846 - 1850 from the Bishop's Transcripts, Entry 248
Source: LDS Film 1469036

John 1838

Lancashire Birth indexes for the years: 1838
WINDERS John
Newton-le-Willows (which is part of Newton in Makerfield reg district Warrington)

"If William & Elizabeth Dewhurst married Preston 1836 and stayed in the Preston area there are 8 children (no William) born to a Winder with mmn = Dewhurst in Broughton, Preston"

sorry my mistake

the children born Broughton, Preston were Amy 1841, Martha 1843, Ambrose 1844 &46, Rebecca 1848, JOHN 1850, Ellen 1853

so John 1838 does not belong to Elizabeth Dewhurst

I wonder if it is worth looking at the original marriage register for the 1887 marriage of William & Ellen to see if there was a mistake made when copying to BT's, which has then been perpetrated onto the index and copy certificate.

As the exact date is known (see p 8) it might be worth a phone call to the Lancs RO and ask for the original record which they hold. Don't know if they charge as the original register has to be retrieved from the archive room so is not a quick search, unlike the BT's which are freely available. If you can wait a week or so (have the grandchildren this week) I can have a look when I go into Preston.

Also I wonder if we are missing William's baptism if he was born in Manchester (see 1891 census). If he was 19 in 1887 he would have been born 1867/68, before compulsory registration. There is one b 1867 Hulme, Manchester nephew of Samuel Winder on the 1881

I keep looking at the Leathers but nothing definite yet Ann but hopefully you may see something I dont.

compare


Marriage: 7 Mar 1866 All Saints, Rainford, Lancashire, England
Thomas Woodward - Full age Miner Widower of Rainford
Ann Kelsale - (X), Full age Widow of Rainford
Groom's Father: Thomas Woodward, Labourer
Bride's Father: John Winders, Bricklayer
Witness: John Hobin; Margaret Pigot, (X)
Married by Banns by: Wm A Kempston
Register: Marriages 1849 - 1868, Page 208, Entry 416
Source: LDS Film 1657567