Find Ancestors

No reply yet. If we haven't heard by this evening my time we may have to look at a different strategy. I will have more time to play this evening.

I have PM'd you with a response. If you find anything which sorts this out let us all know. Might save some of us from going completely bald.

I have sent an email
I have also requested Susan to sed any certificates she has.

Hi ladies,
Sorry, I believe that I’ve caused the confusion here, with the 1871 & 1881 censuses info I posted of William Winders, with parents John & Elizabeth.
Having rechecked, I now believe this info is NOT the same William who married Ellen, you are looking for …… But which AS had pointed out, is that of the William who married Barbara.

These census results indicate this too;

1901 Census
William Winders, wife Barbora abt 1865 Eccleston, Lancashire, England Head St Helen, Lancashire

William Windus
[William Winders], wife Ellen abt 1871 St Helens, Lancashire, England Head St Helen, Lancashire
______________________________________________________

1891 Census
William Winders, wife Barbara abt 1865 St Helens, Lancashire, England Head Eccleston, Lancashire

William Winders, wife Ellen abt 1868 Manchester, Lancashire, England Head Eccleston, Lancashire
_______________________________________________________

Steve

I have requested the residence at marriage addresses for William and Ellen from Susan. I will post when they come through.

Aunty's Ancestry contact is related to William and Barbara. She is also having trouble tracking down Susan's William. Will post when I get anything new.

Susan has replied but not much better


"The marriage certificate states---22nd August 1887 at St Peters of Parr
William Winders aged 19 residing in Parr (that is all the address)
miner
His father is John Winders Glass Maker
Ellen Taylor from Parr aged 19
Father Thomas Smith Labourer
witnesses to marriage William Johnson and Mary Taylor"

OK Susan has faxed the certificates throgh. As suspected some were mine.
These are Susans

birth cert William Winders 21/11/1893
19 Grafton Street St Helens
mother Ellen Winders formely Taylor
father occ coal miner
informant Ellen Winders mother
regstered 3/1/1894

Here is a summary, with some questions. I have printed off all the information, sorted it, weeded out the irrelevant and come up with this.


I wrote this bit at the end but it is better at the beginning

Need to go back to William Winders, (John b. 1839 father) and see if he had any brothers and any more children. That is where the line starts. Makes sense that William Winders the elder had a son called William as well as a son called John.

>>>>>>>Edit.
WILLIAM WINDER
Marriages:
Spouse: ELIZABETH DEWHURST Family
Marriage: 22 NOV 1836 Preston, Lancashire, England
one possibility.

Another possibility 1835 marriage is Dorothy Mount.
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>

William Winders, married ?? , siblings??

Children:
John Winders b. 1839
any more children???

John married (5 Sep 1864) Elizabeth Durdham b.1844 (father Ralph Durdham)

John and Elizabeth Winders

Children:
William b. 1865 bap 2 Apr 1865 Eccleston Lanc.
Annie (Anna) b. 1867
Mary E b. 1871
Elizabeth b. 1875
John b. 1878


William b. 1865 married Ellen Taylor b. 1868 (father Thomas Smith, Labourer) on 22 Aug 1887 (Parish Registers)

Groom's father John Winders, Glass Maker

Ellen was not previously married, cert states spinster. Witness to marriage Mary Taylor.

William and Ellen Winders

Children:

Margaret b. 1889
Jessie b. 1892
William b. 1894 cert 21/11/1893. 19 Grafton St St Helens.
Herbert b. 1899
Harold (Arnold) b. 1901.
Ernest b. 1904
Elsie b. 1906
Norman b. 1908
Ellen b. 1905
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>

William b. 1865 died 1922. Buried 7/11/1922 St Helens Cemetery.
(Might be Barbara’s William)
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>

William Winders b. 1865 married Barbara Roughley b. 1870
Married in Mar Q 1888

Children Mary E, Elizabeth, Barbara, Maggie, John, William, Annie, Richard.

>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>

Marriage certificates show that correct William is the one married to Ellen Taylor. Need to check the date of birth of that William.

>>>>>>>>>>>>Edit. This is Ladykira's info.>>>>>>>>>>>

Been looking at trees.

I have John William Winders b. 1817,

son William Winders b.1843 m Alice b. 1849

son John Winders b. 1869 m Ellen Smith b. 1871 (Father John)

son William Winders b. 1894 m. Maud Denton b. 1896.


There's tufts of hair all over the carpet!!

William 1843 married Alice ashton is mine.

So that whole sequence must also be yours. That is good because it means it does not contradict what we have for Susan's lot.

I find it weird that no one has a tree which follows Susan's Winders lineage. And believe me I have looked.

Was going to delete that wrong info but I'll just edit it instead.. As we find things which fit Susan's info I will put them into the summary. That way everything will be together and in chronological order.

Which of these births could be a child of William Winder and Elizabeth Dewhurst.


Surname First name(s) District Vol Page

--------------------------------------------------------------------------------
Births Jun 1838 (>99%)
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------

WINDERS Emma Preston 21 581 mother nee Turnbull
WINDERS Frances Warrington 20 775
WINDERS James Wigan 21 791

--------------------------------------------------------------------------------
Births Sep 1838 (>99%)
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------

>>>>>>>WINDERS John Warrington 20 764 (here is John) check this one

--------------------------------------------------------------------------------
Births Jun 1839 (>99%)
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------

Winders Elizabeth Ulverstone 25 118

--------------------------------------------------------------------------------
Births Jun 1840 (>99%)
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------

Winders Ruth Preston 21 623 mother nee Turnbull

--------------------------------------------------------------------------------
Births Dec 1840 (>99%)
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------

Winders Ann Bolton 21 112
Winders Edward Liverpool 20 287

--------------------------------------------------------------------------------
Births Jun 1841 (>99%)
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------

Winders James Prescot 20 717

This is the earliest info I have on my Winders

Possible marriage

Marriage: 30 Jul 1790 St Wilfrid, Farnworth near Prescot, Lancashire, England
John Winders - (X), Bricklayer of Farnworth near Prescot
Frances Appleton - (X), Spinster of Farnworth near Prescot
Witness: Henry Appleton; Peter Shaw
Married by Banns by: William Thompson - Minister
Register: Marriages 1781 - 1812, Page 125
Source: LDS Film 166235 item 4

Baptisms: 17 Dec 1820 St Mary, Lancaster, Lancashire, England
John Winder - Son of John Winder & Ellen
Born: 19 Oct 1820
Register: Baptisms 1819 - 1824, Page 94, Entry 747
Source: FHL Film 1526146

1841 census - household transcription
Person: WINDRES, John
Address: Moss Nook, Prescot, Sutton
WINDRES, John M 54 1787 Lancashire VIEW
WINDRES, Ellen F 53 1788 Lancashire VIEW
WINDRES, John M 20 1821 Lancashire VIEW
WINDRES, Ellen F 14 1827 Lancashire



1851 Address: 10, Parr Street, Windle, St Helens
FLANNAGAN, John Head Unmarried M 45 1806 Provison Dealer
Ireland
FLANNAGAN, Patrick Brother Unmarried M 40 1811 Sawyer
Ireland
FLANNAGAN, Ann Sister Unmarried F 35 1816 General Servant
Ireland
KEELY, Patrick Nephew Unmarried M 19 1832 Labourer
Ireland
WINDERS, John Lodger Married M 64 1787 Brick Layer
Parr
Lancashire
WINDERS, Ellen Lodger Married F 62 1789
Parr
Lancashire
FLANNAGAN, Terance Lodger Unmarried M 20 1831 Labourer
Ireland
BURLEY, George Lodger Unmarried M 30 1821 Labourer
Ireland
REYNOLDS, Laurence Lodger Unmarried M 27 1824 Labourer
Ireland
REYNOLDS, Thomas Lodger Married M 24 1827 Labourer
Ireland
MCNALLY, Davy Lodger Widower M 31 1820 Labourer
Ireland
DALE, Mary A Lodger Married F 27 1824 Potter
Warrington
Lancashire



Known children of John 1787 and Ellen

Baptisms: 4 May 1823 St Mary, Lancaster, Lancashire, England
Margaret Winder - Daughter of John Winder & Ellen
Born: 14 Feb 1823
Register: Baptisms 1819 - 1824, Page 209, Entry 1673
Source: FHL Film 1526146

John as above and Ellen as on 1841 census no baptism found,


It is possile there were other siblings already left home by 1841 and baptisms not found.
John 1820 married Ann Dutton/Ditton (marr cert)

Rhonda from Ancestry has


1. William WINDERS was born in 1813 in Sutton, Lancashire, England.
Ann HILL(S) was born in 1811. She died in 1848/9 at the age of 38 in Prescot, Lancashire, England.
1 William WINDERS
and Ann HILL(S) were married in Sep 1840 in Prescot, Lancashire, England.
2 They appeared in the census in 1841 in
Prescot, Lancashire, England.3 William WINDERS and Ann HILL(S) had the following children:
1.1. John HILL (WINDERS) was born in Sep 1838 in St. Helens, Lancashire, England.4 He appeared in the census in
1841. He appeared in the census in 1851 in St. Helens, Lancashire, England.5 John died in Dec 1899 at the age of 61 in
Prescot, Lancashire, England.6
Elizabeth NAYLOR was born about 1845 in Eccleston, Lancashire, England. She died in Mar 1901 at the age of 56 in
Prescot, Lancashire, England.7 John HILL (WINDERS) and Elizabeth NAYLOR were married before Mar 1866 in
Wigan, Lancashire, England.8
They appeared in the census in 1871 in Eccleston, Lancashire, England.9
They appeared
in the census in 1881 in Eccleston, Lancashire, England.10 John and Elizabeth appeared in the census in 1891 in
Eccleston, Lancashire, England.11 John HILL (WINDERS) and Elizabeth NAYLOR had the following children:
1.1.1. William WINDERS was born about 1865 in Eccleston, Lancashire, England. He appeared in the census in
1871 in Eccleston, Lancashire, England.
9 He appeared in the census in 1881 in Eccleston, Lancashire, England.10
William appeared in the census in 1891 in Eccleston, Lancashire, England.12 He appeared in the census in 1901 in
St. Helens, Lancashire, England.13
Barbara was born in 1870 in St. Helens, Lancashire, England. William WINDERS and Barbara were married
before 1889. William WINDERS and Barbara had the following children:

So far in the summary I have done of Susan's info I have not used any of your people. That is a relief. I have seen the records for Ann Dutton etc and now I know where she fits it it makes more sense.

Somewhere in antiquity the two lines must join.

If think the solution will be to find the children and siblings of William born about 1816.

I would like to have a thread with just the summary on it. Think and sort stuff out on this thread and then add the info to the summary thread as it is proven. That way I won't have to keep scrolling back and forwards all the time.

Yes I know would be easier to just fall on my sword rather than start a duplicate thread.

This is the piece of information from Rhonda which bothers me.

11 John HILL (WINDERS) and Elizabeth NAYLOR had the following children:
>>>>>>>1.1.1. William WINDERS was born about 1865 in Eccleston, Lancashire, England. >>>>>>>>He appeared in the census in
1871 in Eccleston, Lancashire, England.

Is this the William we have marrying Ellen Taylor Smith in 1887. Birth certificate for him????

Edit. Birth certificate you have is for William born c1895.

I think this is Susans

Jessie Winders Pedigree
Female

Birth:
Christening: 28 JUL 1891 St Thomas,Eccleston, , Lancashire, England
Parents:
Father: William Winders Family
Mother: Ellen Winders

I028895

and

Margaret Winders Pedigree
Female

Event(s):
Birth:
Christening: 19 MAR 1889 St Thomas,Eccleston, , Lancashire, England


Parents:
Father: William Winders Family
Mother: Ellen Winders
No.: Dates: Source Call No.: Type: Printout Call No.: Type:

I028895

1841 census - household transcription
Person: WINDERS, William
Address: Fleet Lane, Prescot, Parr

WINDERS, George M 50 1791 Lancashire VIEW
WINDERS, Ann F 45 1796 Lancashire VIEW
WINDERS, William M 23 1818 Lancashire VIEW
WINDERS, Ann F 20 1821 Lancashire VIEW
WINDERS, John M 12 1829 Lancashire VIEW
WINDERS, James M 10 1831 Lancashire VIEW

hmmmmmm