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Hi again Bruce

Blimey, what a lot of food for thought and so many great avenues to follow -thank you.

Yes, I feel a christmas pressie or two coming my way via GRO lol!

I don't have the marr cert for Clara but maybe it is worth the cost to get even more intrigued with her!!

Um,Constance I Unsworth Leeds could poss be the answer - I live in hope! That would have made her 17 when she married Fred and maybe explain why none of her witnesses were her family members although the church she married in was around the area they seem to live.

Once again a really massive thanks for all the time and effort you have spent on my behalf. I am going to order Constance Unsworths birth along with some of the others births and death certs - blow the expense beans and toast won't go amiss for the next few weeks - only joking!!

Am going to work my way through all your brill suggestions and if I strike gold will definately let you know.

Have a brilliant Christmas and a happy, healthy and productive family history 2010.

Regards
Jackie

Here is a possibly interesting thing.

Name: Walter W Smith
Spouse Surname: Archer Or Clark
Date of Registration: Jul-Aug-Sep 1929
Registration district: Keighley
Registration county (inferred): Yorkshire - West Riding
Volume Number: 9a
Page Number: 532

Name: Ellen Archer
Spouse Surname: Smith - Walter W Smith
Date of Registration: Jul-Aug-Sep 1929
Registration district: Keighley
Registration county (inferred): Yorkshire - West Riding
Volume Number: 9a
Page Number: 532

Name: Ellen Clark
Spouse Surname: Smith - Walter W Smith
Date of Registration: Jul-Aug-Sep 1929
Registration district: Keighley
Registration county (inferred): Yorkshire - West Riding
Volume Number: 9a
Page Number: 532

'X or Y' can mean that the woman has been divorced, but it can also refer to an official name and a 'used' name.

Could that be Nellie Archer, born abt 1889, if she lived as Clark although born Archer? Or another later daughter of Annie Unsworth Archer Clark, and Arthur Archer?


And just one more little question, lol.

Births Sep 1910 (99%)
UNSWORTH Constance I Leeds 9b 280

That person is not in the 1911 census and there is no record of a marriage or death for a Constance I Unsworth.

Could Constance's birth have been registered very late, or could she have given a false age when she married? (Particularly given that she was pregnant when she married, that could fit.)

If you are in a mood to buy yourself Christmas presents lol, I would get the birth and death certificates for Willie and Norman. Maybe start with one of them, but get both the birth and death certificate so you are 1. sure you have the child of Annie Unsworth and Samuel Archer, and 2. sure you have the death certificate that matches that birth (by birthdate).

Once you have that, assuming matches, there is also always of researching to find a death notice in the papers, to see whether there are names of wife and children and grandchildren.

The Clara plot does thicken.

Marriages Mar 1915
Spencer Walter H Unsworth Bramley 9b 383
Unsworth Clara Spencer Bramley 9b 383

It doesn't look like they had children?

But do you have that marriage certificate? And what does it say for Clara's father?? Arthur Clark, probably, with the kind of luck these things usually have, lol.

Don't worry about being 'late' to reply. I am just working away at Christmas messages at the computer and checking in here at Genes. Everybody's busy this week!

Hi Bruce
Once again apologises for taking so long, just been trudging through the snow with 2 dogs in tow!! lol

I have the marr. cert of Annie Unsworth/Archer to Arthur Clark both are widowed and the age for Annie is right. One of the witnesses is Clara Spencer who is next to Annie's name and the mysterious Clara Unsworth married a Spencer - the plot thickens?

I have both witness's on Constances marr cert to Fred Fox were from Fred's side, one his brother and the other a friend - my dad remembers the friend the other was definately Fred's brother.

Do you think it would be worth me obtaining Norman's birth cert or do you think Willie's death cert maybe a better bet?

I have put Annie Archer and her siblings on various sites ie Lost Cousins, Ancestry GR and to no avail.

Thanks again for taking the time to try and help.

Kind regards
Jackie

Uncommon names are always good, for searching. It seems that son Willie really was formally named that.

Births Sep 1890 (>99%)
Archer Willie Sheffield 9c 513

He was 9 months old in the 1891 census, shown as born in Sheffield.

That birth matches this death:

Name: Willie Archer
Birth Date: 24 Jun 1890 *** ( matches if registered in July)
Death Registration Month/Year: 1974
Registration district: Bradford
Inferred County: Yorkshire West Riding, West Yorkshire
Volume: 4
Page: 0502

Also, this could be Annie's son Norman:

Name: Norman Archer
Birth Date: 6 Jan 1898
Death Registration Month/Year: 1977
Registration district: Wakefield
Inferred County: West Yorkshire
Volume: 5
Page: 1345

This could be a matching birth (the 1901 has him born in Hull, which is close):

Births Mar 1898 (>99%)
Archer Norman Sculcoates 9d 194

Death certificates can be useful because the informant of death may be a family member and that name could help with further tracing.

The idea is that it is possible that Constance stayed in touch with a brother or sister after leaving her husband and children. Unfortunately the ones we know about were all older than her so would not be living now, but it is possible that one of their children would recall their aunt.

Of course, if you dad knew his Archer cousins and they were not in touch with their parents' sister Constance, this isn't useful.

I am wondering whether you are sure that the Annie Archer who married Arthur Clark in 1935 in Leeds is Annie Unsworth. You do have that marriage certificate? Annie Unsworth Archer would have been 70 years old!

If that is definitely her, it means she was alive in 1911, which is a very useful piece of information! Of course, I have not been able to find her or her children in that census either, lol.

I do suspect that the younger children's father, and any born after 1901 at least, which would include Constance, was not Samuel. In theory, Annie would have had to register them in her husband's surname even if they were not his children. But again, people did not always do what they were supposed to do. If that were the case, though, Annie and any children living with her could be in the 1911 census under a completely unknown surname, her new partner's.

Hi Jackie. I wonder whether you're in touch with or have tried to trace the families of any of Annie Unsworth Archer Clark's other children?

I just thought I would add this in case you don't have it, from the 1871 census. Annie's age is off, but father William is a Machinist Fitter which matches mechanic on her marriage certificate. The three youngest children were born in Leeds.

Name: Annie Unsworth
Age: 4
Estimated birth year: abt 1867
Relation: Daughter
Father's Name: William
Mother's Name: Hannah
Gender: Female
Where born: Manchester, Lancashire, England
Civil parish: Leeds
Ecclesiastical parish: St George
Town: Leeds
County/Island: Yorkshire
Household Members:
Name Age
William Unsworth 26
Hannah Unsworth 24
Sarah A Unsworth 8
Annie Unsworth 4
William Unsworth 2
Joseph Unsworth 5 days
Daniel Unsworth 5 days

By 1881 she is a servant in Leeds shown as born abt 1864.

Yes I do think it's a big coincidence to find a Clara Unsworth as the adopted daughter of the man that Annie Unsworth Archer later married! There must be some connection between the Hanson or Clark family and some Unsworths, but it would take some digging to find it, and it might not be findable. If she were a daughter of one of Arthur's or Carrie's siblings, we would expect it to say "niece" in 1891 rather than "cousin", which could be any relation at all.

Hi Bruce

Sorry it is taking me so long to get back onto site - mayhem here at the moment!

The Archer's seem to have originated in Lancs. poss. Manchester area i just thought it weird that Clara Unsworth was living with Arthur Clark who Annie later went on to marry - coincidence?

Looks possible that Caroline Hanson is Arthurs first wife - I will check that out - thank you.

I image it is possible that Annie had her younger children to someone else - would it be normal then for Constance to give Samuel Archer's name as her father on her wedding cert? Perhaps the father didn't stay around - have you any thoughts on that one please?

I will check out all Constance's born in Q2 in 1904 and see what it throws up - that again seems weird (or is it just me being paranoid) as her birth date is the same as mine!

I will order the death cert for Constance in Keighley and see what it shows.

Thank you so much for your help everyone, it is really appreciated.

I hope that I get "good enough" to be able to help others before too long.

Thanks again.

Kind regards and have a brill Christmas and happy, healthy and productive
2010 in the family history searches.

Take care

Jackie

Have you considered this death, which is in the same district as where your father was born?

Name: Constance Fox
Birth Date: 24 Apr 1904
Death Registration Month/Year: Feb 1987
Age at death (estimated): 82
Registration district: Keighley
Inferred County: Yorkshire
Volume: 4
Page: 722

I am sorry, I have tried to post this twice and both times something went wrong. I will try again and if it works I will delete the two postings above, where it got cut off somehow.


Hello Jackie. Just for interest about your 'weird thing' in 1911, in the 1901 census you have

Name: Clara Unsworth
Age: 15
Estimated birth year: abt 1886
Relation: Adopted Daughter ***
Gender: Female
Where born: Hunslet, Yorkshire, England
Civil parish: Hunslet
Ecclesiastical parish: St Mary
County/Island: Yorkshire
Country: England
Household Members:
Name Age
Arthur Clark 35
Carrie Clark 35
Clara Unsworth 15
Eliza Hanson 60
Edson Hall 23

And in 1891 you have

Name: Clara Unsworth
Age: 5
Estimated birth year: abt 1886
Relation: Cousin ***
Gender: Female
Where born: Leeds, Yorkshire, England
Civil parish: Hunslet
Ecclesiastical parish: St Silas
County/Island: Yorkshire
Country: England
Household Members:
Name Age
Arthur Clark 25
Carry Clark 25
Nelly Clark 4/12
Clara Unsworth 5


Marriages Dec 1889 (>99%)
CLARK Arthur Hunslet 9b 419 ***
Farrar Lily Hunslet 9b 419
Hanson Caroline Hunslet 9b 419 ***
Hobson Henry Hunslet 9b 419


The Wigan Clara Unsworth is with her parents Isaac and Elizabeth in Hindley, Lancs, in 1891.


Clara seems to have been born after Annie Unsworth and Samuel Archer married in 1884 (so she doesn't look like Annie's daughter) (and Annie and Samuel were together in 1891) so it's still a mystery. So is what became of Clara.

"Naman Arther" (at Ancestry), aged 3 in 1901, was born in Hull according to the census record. There weree not many Normans born in Hull district around 1898, and there was no Norman Archer. Do you think Annie had her youngest children with someone else and registered them under their father's surname?

mgnv

My apologies too! I also assumed Vancouver WA was in Canada also - my geography is also rubbish, my maths are no better!!!


Viv

Sorry I've taken so long getting back onto the site have been for hospital appointment today.

Anyway, I'll answer your questions the best I can.

Marriage Cert details:

2nd Aug 1927 at St. Aidan Parish Church, Leeds, West Yorkshire, UK

Fred Fox 26yrs Bachelor Belt Maker 55 Unity St. South, Bingley
Father William Wilberforce Fox (deceased) Chemist

Constance Archer 22yrs Spinster Nursing 29 Bukely View (I think this should be Buckley View as I found one on Multimap near Roundhay Park, Leeds where apparently they used to go before they were married)

Father Samuel Archer Boiler Maker.

I am 99.9% sure her mother is Annie Unsworth (my father's brother's middle name was Hunsworth) and I have a marriage to a Samuel Archer
Aug 3rd 1884 St Silas, Hunslet, Leeds
Samuel Archer 20 yrs Bachelor Boiler Maker 13 Donisthorpe St
Father William Archer Lock Keeper
Annie Unsworth 19yrs Spinster Servant 21 Donisthorpe St.
Father William Unsworth Mechanic

On the UK 1901 Census I have

Annie Archer Seperated/M 34yrs b Lancs Manchester
Fred Archer Son/S 16 yrs Boiler Maker b Yorks Leeds
Nellie Archer Daug/S 12 yrs b Yorks Leeds
Willie Archer Son/S 10 yrs b Yorks Sheffield
Sam Archer Son/S 6yrs b Yorks Leeds
Norman(?) Archer Son3yrs b Yorks Hull - blind from childhood
Annie Archer Daug 1 yr b Yorks Leeds

It was transcribed under Arthur the census ref being RG13/4219 Folio27 pg 6.

Samuel her father is also in Leeds on this Census RG13/4219 Folio 17 pg25 - he states he is Head and is Married.

I have a copy of the marriage cert to Harry Mantle and again the father isn't Samuel. Constance, if she told the truth about her age - she was expecting my dad when she got married - would have been born appx 4 yrs after Annie said she was separated. So I have no idea whether she remarried, nor does my father.

No one knows whether she emigrated either.

A weird thing though:

Annie (Unsworth) remarried in 1935 in Leeds to a Arthur Clark months after Samuel died. On the 1911 census Arthur Clark is married to Carry Clark and they have an adopted daughter Clara Unsworth! Previous census show Clara as being a cousin but both families lived roughly in the same area but I can't find a birth either for Clara in Leeds, the only Clara Unsworth is Wigan area. When Annie died she went into the same grave as Samuel.

Don't know if any off this is helpful. Christine has been helping me for a good few months but neither of us can find her.

So once again any help whatsoever would be so appreciated.

Thanks and hope you haven't fallen asleep zzzzzzzz

x

Yeah Viv - the Canadian Vancouver is in "Beautiful British Columbia" - well that's what our car licence plates say, but it's a grizzly day here today - rained overnight - total overcast today, and 15-20mm rain forecast tomorrow - typical December weather for here really, eh.

My mistake mgnv,USA it isthen not Canada.
My geography outside Wales leaves a lot to be desired !

Wrong country - Vancouver WA is 500km away from Vancouver BC - it's just across the river from Portland OR. They are both named after the same guy, though.

EDIT The rootsweb info is available on familysearch. She could have immigrated FROM Canada (or anywhere) in 1956.

If you would like to give as much details as you have from her marriage cert and who you think her parents and siblings are, we can have a try at finding her on 1911 census for you.

Could she have married again?
There is a marriage in 1945 in Leeds of a Harry Mantle and Constance Fox.
Are you sure she went to Canada?
viv

Has any kind person access to Rootsweb SS Death Index and be prepared to do a look up for me please? This is a long shot (have been trying to find this lady for virtually 3 years now and don't have access or anyone else living abroad to warrant subscription)

The info I have is from Rootsweb is

Constance Fox
b 1.1.1905
d Nov 1973
Last residence (98660 Vancouver, Clark WA)
SS No 53338277
Issued Washington

I am trying to trace my paternal g.mother all I know is she married my g.father - Fred Fox, as Constance Archer b c1905.
(I can't find a UK birth or her on 1911 Census or who I am almost certain are her mother and father or older siblings. Have spent hours trying variations all to no avail.

They divorced sometime after 1931.

I don't know whether the SS Death Index will give any additional info but I am desperate now! My dad is 82 and would like to find out what happened to his mum, she left the family when he was 3.

Any help whatsoever would be greatly appreciated.

Thanks for taking the time to read this epic.

Regards
Jackie