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I have just searched the 1901 on here for Henry and Harriett Fuller/Faller using surname and forename variants and....nothing?

Are you folks using the same database?

Rich

I have to say you folks are impressive. A genealogical A Team!

I also must keep saying thank you for your continued work on this (yes- very annoying chap- Bruce!)

Can I just recap as I got lost somewhere:

We are pretty sure of Harriett Phillips born of Joshua
1891 with parents
1901 parents without her, her with F(u)llers. Daughter in law.
1911 with new hubby George McP

Albert H- Harriets son to a Fuller- poss William H???? The Sept 1898 WH Fuller and Harriet Phillips W Ham 4a 350 marriage

No record of a Frank/Fred or WG Fuller newsagent apart from WG Plumstead newsagent in census. But if Frank/Fred knew his grandad was a newsagent in 1911 and William (his dad?) had worked with him prior to his death then that would make sense of his assumption. So his dad would be William H Fuller not William George Fuller..the George, as you have said, possibly being a tribute to his McP relationships, or just a childs multiple family confusion...

I will try to find out grandads death cert info from rellies to further investigate him, but my feeling now is we can expect more handed down stories rather than facts. Lets hope not.

Thank you all for your continued help.

So many unexpected turns in this subject. My paternal line has been quite easy down the male grandparents side as would be expected with one surname. My paternal grandmother is expectedly more difficult. But on my maternal side its been the other way round. My grandmother Edith Emily has been quite easy all things considered but the Fullers....urrrghh!

BTW Bruce I did mention that I didnt know who Frank/Fred was raised with. The rellies do think he was with his mum at some point. They certainly didnt lose contact as she was at his 1927 wedding.

One final thought, continuing the "was he a Fuller at all" theme, is that when Harriets WH Fuller husband went to war, or just died, did Harriett find solace in a pre George McP affair with a Mr unknown? This would make my family's illigitimate recollections correct. Maybe Harriett told Fred later about the affair (for it to become family lore) but perhaps she never knew the mans surname. Possibly even a one night stand or a crime against her. I might do a search on here to see whether Percival G or the other Fuller children have descendants on here that may have some info!

All the best folks. I look forward to your replies.

Rich

Regarding whose son Albert H Fuller in 1901 was

Harriet Fuller sister of William H Fuller married Leonard Emblem in 1902 and in 1911

EMBLEM HARRIET ELEANOR F 1879 32 West Ham Essex
EMBLEM LEONARD EDWARD M 1879 32 West Ham Essex
and three children born 1903-1910

so it looks like she was the mother of Albert H Fuller. It makes most sense that Harriet Phillips Fuller was. But if so where is he in 1911 too?

Very annoying people Rich, lol.

About that Albert H Fuller who was 2 in 1901. No death in West Ham 1901-1911. No marriage in West Ham to 1930, but then he could have married somewhere else.

Only one likely death later:

Name: Albert Henry Fuller
Birth Date: 27 Sep 1897
Death Registration Month/Year: 1979
Registration district: Tonbridge
Inferred County: Kent
Volume: 16
Page: 2455

who looks very much like the birth I put above

Births Dec 1897 (>99%)
Fuller Albert Henry Lewisham 1d 1184

and is not likely our Albert H Fuller. I wonder whether he was grandson to Henry and Eleanor but not the son of William and Harriet.

The other two AH Fullers at the CWGC site can be ruled out, one has different parents, I found the other's marriage and he was Arthur, but I wonder about this one although if ours was 2 in 1901 he would have been 17 in 1916 but maybe just turned 18

Name: FULLER, ALBERT H.
Initials: A H
Nationality: United Kingdom
Rank: Rifleman
Regiment/Service: London Regiment (London Rifle Brigade)
Unit Text: 1st/5th Bn.
Date of Death: 01/07/1916
Service No: 1986
Casualty Type: Commonwealth War Dead
Grave/Memorial Reference: Pier and Face 9 D.
Memorial: THIEPVAL MEMORIAL

Vivian???? not sure where i got that from...... just looked through both threads and can't see that name!!! You know what that means don't you... hiccuupppp!!! Tooo many xmas drinks!!!!


Sorry Rich.

Bruce..... that's what I'm hoping that it shows a DOB on his death cert... if not Rich's father may know (pretty sure he mentioned his father Vivian??).


This patting yourself on the back stuff is pretty hard going......... ouch... got a crook in me neck now!!!


Dee x

For Fred/Frank's DOB without his birth certificate ... a vicious circle that ... what about his death?? If before 1971 it would have at least his age, if after it should have his DOB. _If_ it was known to the person who gave it, and if what they 'knew' was correct ...

Rich do you know when and where he died?

Dee it was remiss of me to forget to say 'brill find' for the 1891 and 1901 Fullers too.

I looked back at this one in 1911

FULLER FREDERIC GEORGE M 1906 5 West Ham Essex

(that is how it is spelled in the GRO index too, one of my great-grandfathers was registered that way but always spelled it Frederick)

to see whether the adult George in the household (married in 1904) might be a brother of William H Fuller but no. In 1881

Henry Fuller 25 >> bookseller's assistant
Eleanor J. Fuller 25
William H. Fuller 2
Annie E. Fuller 1
Annie M. Bowden 28

If we knew whether Fred/Frank's father really was Fuller then this Fuller tracing would be more worthwhile!

I tend to agree with you, George added to his name in respect of his Stepfather....

So Fred/Frank is not with the Fuller Grandparents (wouldn't be his natural G Parents, so he wouldn't be) He's not with the Phillips G Parents (they've died)....... so whoever Fred/Franks father is maybe have him in their family??? That's one very small needle in a very large haystack!!!!

Rich we REALLY need Fred/Franks DOB.......... I can't think of anyway forward until we know this can you Bruce?


Dee x

MCPHERSON FREDERICK WILLIAM M 1902 9 Shoreditch London

The couple he is living with are too young to have children the age of the older ones

MCPHERSON FREDERICK JAMES M 1889 22 Shoreditch London
MCPHERSON JOSEPHINE MAY F 1890 21 Shoreditch London
MCPHERSON CLARA WINIFRED F 1903 8 Shoreditch London
MCPHERSON MARGARET EDITH F 1906 5 Shoreditch London
MCPHERSON MALCOLNE WALTER LEONARD M 1911 2 MONTHS Shoreditch London

Marriages Sep 1910
McClur_ Josephine M Islington 1b 667
McPherson Frederick J Islington 1b 667

Births Jun 1901 ???
McPHERSON Frederick William Holborn 1b 699


This looks like our George McP in 1891 and he doesn't have a brother Frederick James

Name: George C Mc Pherson
Age: 3
Estimated birth year: abt 1888
Relation: Son
Father's Name: George
Mother's Name: Harriet M A
Gender: Male
Where born: Walthamstow, Essex, England

Civil parish: Walthamstow
Ecclesiastical parish: St Stephen
County/Island: Essex

Household Members:
Name Age
George Mc Pherson 35
Harriet M A Mc Pherson 30
Harriet R Mc Pherson 6 >>> editing: she is Harriet Rose McP witness at Fuller-McP marriage
Margaret J Mc Pherson 4
George C Mc Pherson 3
Alfred R Mc Pherson 1


I don't think those McPs in the 1911 lead to anything but it is always useful to investigate any possibilities and then discard them, lol.

I would really bet that George was not truly Fred/Frank's real second name and he used it only because of his stepfather being George.

And we could really do with knowing Fred/Franks DOB.... it would help to narrow it down.... still can't get my head around that mixture of a shortened name.

I wonder what happened to Albert H born 1899?? Can't see a death.

That certainly happened a lot, grandfather was one of the common people named as father on marriage certificates.

Do you know what I would bet is Fred/Frank just took the 'George' from his stepfather for his father's name and possibly for his own name as well.

I don't think Rich has ever told us something I asked before, whether Fred/Frank in fact was reared by his mother and stepfather McP.

Still can't see Fred/Frank in 1911 though!!!

It does look like his fathers name got muddled along the way.... well his wifes husband anyway. I have an ancestor who listed their Grandfather as their father on their marriage cert and gave his proffesion.... yep you guessed it he was illegitimate!

Also living with Henry and Eleanor Fuller in 1911

FARRANT ELEANOR FLORANCE F 1909 2 West Ham Essex

granddaughter. Interesting.

But no not interesting.

Marriages Jun 1907 (>99%)
FARRANT Richard W. Ham 4a 330
FULLER Annie Eleanor W.Ham 4a 330 >> She is a daughter in the 1891 census

Births Sep 1908 (>99%)
Farrant Ellinor Florence Sevenoaks 2a 851

So maybe he did make up a father after all when he married or at least someone had made him up for him at some point. 'Killed in the war' is very convenient as long as nobody goes asking which war, lol.

That certainly does look like Harriet. This is the only birth to fit for an Albert H Fuller

Births Dec 1897 (>99%)
Fuller Albert Henry Lewisham 1d 1184

but he would have been 3 in the 1901 census. And it says he was born in Walthamstow.

And the image actually says Albert E not H. So

Births Mar 1898 (>99%)
Fuller Albert Edward W. Ham 4a 20

NO wait I take back my back pat that was the wrong Albert in 1901 I was looking at. He is Albert H but still orn in Walthamstow, so maybe the age 2 is just inaccurate.

1911;

HOUSEHOLD FULLER HENRY M 1856 55 West Ham Essex (NEWSAGENT)
HOUSEHOLD FULLER PERCIVAL GEORGE M 1887 24 West Ham Essex
HOUSEHOLD FULLER SUSAN F 1885 26 West Ham Essex
HOUSEHOLD FULLER ELEANOR F 1856 55 West Ham Essex


Not sure who else is living with the family............. but we've found your Newsagent!!!



Dee x

1891 England Census
about William H Fuller
Name: William H Fuller
Age: 12
Estimated birth year: abt 1879
Relation: Son
Father's Name: Henry
Mother's Name: Eleanor T
Gender: Male
Where born: Pentonville, London, England

Civil parish: Walthamstow
Ecclesiastical parish: St Mary
County/Island: Essex
Country: England

Street Address:

Occupation:

Condition as to marriage:

Education:

Employment status: View image

Registration district: West Ham
Sub-registration district: Walthamstow
ED, institution, or vessel: 29
Neighbors: View others on page
Household Members: Name Age
Henry Fuller 35 Book sellers asisstant
Eleanor T Fuller 35
William H Fuller 12
Annie E Fuller 11
John A Fuller 9
Susan F Fuller 5
Percival G Fuller 3


So I think we can now assume that Harriet met someone before George Mcpherson and that is where Frederick/ Frank comes from.... so did Fred/Frank have his fathers surname to begin with???

Dee x

This looks like Harriett in 1901;

1901 England Census
about Harriet Faller
Name: Harriet Faller
Age: 24
Estimated birth year: abt 1877
Relation: Daughter-in-law
Spouse's name: Percy G
Gender: Female
Where born: Cambridgeshire, England

Civil parish: Walthamstow
Ecclesiastical parish: St Mary
Town: Walthamstow
County/Island: Essex
Country: England

Street Address:

Occupation: DRESSMAKER!!!!!

Condition as to marriage: WIDOW!!!!

Education:

Employment status: View image

Registration district: West Ham
Sub-registration district: Walthamstow
ED, institution, or vessel: 41
Neighbors: View others on page
Household schedule number: 15
Household Members: Name Age
Henry Faller 43 BOOK SELLER & NEWS AGENTS ASISSTANT!!!
Eleanor Faller 44
John A Faller 19
Percy G Faller 13
Harriet Faller 24
Albert H Faller 2 GRANDSON!!!

Obviously Percy G is not Harriets husband


These 3 should be on the next family;
Tom Spicer 19
William Spicer 16
Caroline E Evans 45




Dee x

1911 census transcription details for: 140 Mortlake Road
National Archive Reference:
RG14PN9486 RG78PN508 RD188 SD4 ED16 SN82

Reg. District: West Ham Sub District: Canning Town
Parish: West Ham Enum. District: 16
Address: 140 Mortlake Road
County: Essex
Name Relation Condition/
Yrs married Sex Age Birth
Year Occupation Where Born
FULLER, Samuel Head Married M 40 1871 Bricklayer Kingsland London
FULLER, Agnes Wife Married
14 years F 30 1881 Bexley Heath Kent
FULLER, Samuel Son Single M 10 1901 School Custom House Essex
FULLER, Henry Son Single M 8 1903 School Custom House Essex
FULLER, Frank Son Single M 5 1906 School Custom House Essex
FULLER, Albert Son Single M 3 1908 Custom House Essex
FULLER, Frederick Son Single M 1 1910 Custom House Essex