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hello erek
had a good chuckle to day with your posts

sally w :-D <3

Sorry LA a mistake....too many George's......Matilda married ALFRED HENRY WELLS..who was born 1860 son of GEORGE WELLS born 1823.who married Anne Hopkins also born 1823..Mea Culpa. Mea maxima Culpa..............but not ften!! lol

Derek.

Oink Derek ;-) :-D. Thanks for these I have just made notes ready to transfer over. Call me dim if you wish but who exactly is it born 1823 on previous posting timed 14.20 ?

Thanks so much again,you are a star. The other information on Lucy Allen?Hough would be great when you get a minute. Enjoy your evening <3

Hello Verna..sorry to seem to ignore you..as you can see have been deeply involved in an ongoing saga..............will get back to you tomorrow.

Derek.

Gooner..here we go again.......the final marriage of a sibling to Eliza Allen is:-

MARY ALLEN 19.01.1868 derby.. daughter of Thomas and Lucy.who married:

CHARLES HORTON of Birmingham on the26th August 1890

Charles Horton 09.07.1866 was the son of Henry and Eliza Horton who married in Birmingham 06.11.1861........

HE WAS ANOTHER !!****'@@ oink PORK BUTCHER!!!

The 1891 census is revealing in a couple of instances...not the least in revealing an obvious closeness to the Allen family..you remember that Joseph F Allen (Pork Butcher) went back to Birmingham.....well..1891 Census reveals also what happened to two other of ELIXA ALLEN's siblings.
MARGARET ALLEN 1873 daughter of Thomas and Lucy is installed with Charles ans Mary as a governess..although they don't yet have children....maybe she was just visiting..but in the best Jane Austen radition..governesses did not marry..........
Also installed at 392 Summer lane Birmingham in 1891 is Mary's brother EDWARD(31.07.1877 Derby) ALLEN..working for \C|harles as a "Butcher's Boy...

The 1901 census shows the first child of Charles and Mary Horton as FRANCIS H HORTON 1894...and although Margaret has disappeared..EDWARD ALLEN is still there working for Charles the pork butcher at 111 Church lane..which still exists but is a modern estate.

I have as yet been unable to find them in 1911..the premises at 111 Church \lane being occupied by a different family of Pork butcher's!! so that address was clearly a \butcher's Shop and house combined.

That's all i have on the ALLEN family.....but I do have the story of the family of LUCY ALLEN nee HOUGH if you want it.

That was as difficut as,if more productive than.thev Meashams!.

Off now for a rub down with a wet News of the World and a large Scotch..having just had Pork sausages for supper!! (yes seriously_)

Derek.

Thanks Derek I am now sitting down at last for the evening so I will enter the details on the tree.

Hi again Gooner..........don't miss my message below......

Another sibling of Eliza Allen..

Matilda Allen daughter of Thomas and Lucy (03.02.1861)..married ALFRED GEORGE WELLS at St.Alkmund 23.01.1883.

They only had one child George in 1883.

Have followed the family up to and including the 1911 census.

The wells family appears to go way back as a family of Coach \builders, and George had many siblings..none of whom were Pork Butchers.!!

He was born 1823 .can't find parentage at this time.......He married ANNE HOPKINS baptised 05.10.1823......the daughter of George Hopkins and the already pregnant Millicent Smith ( who married 19.07.1823!!)

Alfred George Wells and Matilda nee Allen are living at 18 West Avenue derby in 1901..and at number 36 West Avenue in 1911.

more later

Derek.

Hi LA....happy birthday to junior Gooner.....instalment two coming up:--

JOSEPH FORTH ALLEN...BORN DERBY 19.07.1853 BAPTISED 24.09.1854 Derby

This looks a bit more complicated than it is.....he definitely married ANN WINFIELD..not quite sure which one..at derby JAS 1881..most sy she is a derbyshire lass...but one source says Aston Warwickshire........which is probably irrelevant,,except that id where they ended up in 1901.

They appear to have had three children before 1881....Gertrude 1877..Thomas 1879..Matilda 1880.......

The 1881 for Joseph Allen has him as \head of household in Queen Street..but also as "Son".......clearly of Thomas and Lucy..along with Henry his brother..both Pork butchers...Henry 09.11.1862...so clearly not the father of the three children above..listed as grandchildren..so the only assumption i can make is that they were children on Joseph and Ann (Annie) pre-marriage............

Jumping to 1901 now in Aston Birmingham..Joseph still a pork butcher..with the following additional children

Lucy 1883
Edith 1885
George 1889
Mabel Ellen 1891
Samuel 1893
Herbert 1895
Walter 1897

Before \i send you any more \i'm going to have a fish around to try to confirm the parenthood of the first three children.

EDIT 13.11.....ok the 1891 confirms the first three children as those of Joseph and Annie....born Derby//////.....Lucy 1883..and all the others were born in Aston Warwickshire........

EDIT EDIT.13.26..........just to complete this particular part of the saga.....the 1911..in case you don't have it shows the folowing:

Annie widow mother. (Joseph died 1904)
Matilda Beatrice
George Henry
Mabel Victoria
Samuel gordon
Herbert Winfield ( sort of confirming mum's maiden name)
Walter Steward.

all unmarried living in Sparkbrook Birmingham...

Derek.

LOL Derek an abundance of sausages methinks ;-). Thanks for these they will keep me busy this evening if I have any energy left. Busy making and icing a birthday cake for youngest Gooner ,2 on Weds. My how it's flown.
Don't rush around too much, take it steady :-)

Good morning LA.......back on duty ma'am....I found the Ancestry \tree to which you refer..actually i checked it out against the census details and it is one of the good ones......It doesn't have the marriages .except that of Joseph..and it doesn't have the baptisms..which i went off an found for myself..
You're getting this on bits an pieces because I'm dashing around a bit today...Your original request was for a marriage for ELIZA ALLEN and her siblings......here are the children of THOMAS ALLEN and LUCY nee HOUGH.married 31.05.1852...Thomas son of Francis (Frank) Pork Butcher !!!! Church Broughton.

Joseph Forth Allen 1853-1904
Thomas 27.12.1857...died 1858
Francis William 05.06.1859...died 1866
Matilda 03.02.1861
Lucy Annie 17,07.1864
John William 16.06.1866
Mary 19.01.1868 19.01.1868
Fanny 27.02.1870
Francis thomas 1871
Margaret 1873
Edward 21.03.1875..born 05.02.1875
George 28.10.1877...born 31.07.1877.

I have marriages for:- Eliza Joseph Forth, Matilda and Mary.

ELIZA ALLEN married Francis Gardiner Boden 29.12.1875 at St Alkmund Derby (Unti now all events are Derby)..but by 1881 they are living in Ashby de la zouch

Children of Eliza and francis:-

Margaret 1877
Ethel Wheeler 1880
Francis A 1881
1881 79 Market Street Ashby..Hotel Proprietor..Lucy Allen sister of Eliza. is visiting
more children:-

Lucy 1883
Reginald g. 1885
Dorothy elizabeth 1888
Charles H 1890
Percy O 1891
Frances \|May 1893.............this 1901 and they are in Stretford Barton in Irwell lancs..and Francis is a \brewer's agent

Incidentally in 1891 whilst in Ashby FRANCIS ALLEN brother of Eliza is visiting..Mr \Boden is now running the Bath Hotel Ashby.

Just a side line before \i forget it....JOSEPH ALLEN b. Church Broughton 1854 is on the 1861 Census as a "Nurse Child"..apparently child of Johanna Watts aged 20....taken in by grabdparents John and |May Clews......probably unrelated, but a nice bit if scandal..who knows what Pork Butcher get up to with their sausages......

more later

Morning from the sadist :-D. Well I did warn you I would need your help again soon LOL > I have not got as far as Joseph yet oh what a prolific little breeder ;-). I have a few inklings of marriages etc but mostly from other trees which of course are not always to be relied upon.

More Butchers ! it is still travelling in the Genes then . I will look in later sometime ,Thanks <3 .

Hello Gooner..just to make you smile in the morning........its now gone 1am..you asked me to find the marriages etc of the siblings of Eliza Allen........I bet the sadist in you knows that she was one of 13 children!!!..and that her eldest brother Joseph Forth Allen had another 12!!!!..and he was a bleedin'Pork Butcher also;....apart from there being no telly......how much meat did they eat!!!
I've found three marriages and two deaths......but you're not getting them till tomorrow!!

night night.

Derek.

Hi Derek
Apart from the Mary Haslam side of the family, I'm also looking for John Leatherland born about 1823ish - don't know who he married but they had a son also called John born 1850ish; who married Hannah Parkin, they had a son called Horace my grandad, born 1875 all of them in the Langley Mill/Heanor area.
I'm about 8 hours behind the UK in time so am not always able to be on the computer when you are.
Thanks
Verna :-)

Thank you Derek. that ties in with my thoughts. Any chance of finding details ie marriages and deaths of the siblings of Eliza please as they are driving me potty :-S

I must be still up in the wordl Son and Son in law both butchers but the only servants they have are their partners :-D

Well then...surprise surprise perhaps I can my Gooner friend!!

ELIZA ALLEN..baptised Derby 30.12.1855 daughter of Thomas and Lucy Allen..(who sound familiar to your Allen's)

Eliza Allen (father thomas!)..married St Alkmund Derby 29.12.1875....aged 20..to FRANCIS GARDINER BODEN aged 29..

These are facts..whether they are 100% related, you may or may not know..but too much matches up for it to be a wild guess!!
EDIT 23.19.....1871.Thomas and large family including Eliza living at "Parkfields"..big house..he's a Butcher and obviously a very goo one cos he has three servants........you're going up in the world!!

I think Lucy Allen's maiden name was Hough..cos mother=in-law a widowed Hough of 70 is also living there!!

EDIT EDIT11 23.25.Guess wot......Thomas Allen married Lucy Hough at St.Werbergh's derby 31.05.1852..and Thomas, i can confirm was the son of FRANCIS!!!!!


Derek

Derek can you please see if you can find a marriage for Eliza Allen who was born 1855 Derby.

Thank you

Thanks Derek - I found you!
Verna

Thanks Kath...don't think she's online at the moment, having not read my last message..........no problem.

Derek.

Hi Derek,

You are very welcome

Well they can't be looking at the 1st page of Finding Ancestors at the moment.

This reply will nudge it up again, so they have to be quick

Hi Kath..thanks for that..but funny/odd..because I have a lady who still can't find it!!

Derek.