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Thanks Derek,

They aren't hymn books - prizes for some competitions. Many thanks anyway. Sounds as if you are keeping well now so take care!!

Jenny

Hello Jenny..all I can tell you is the UK Band of Hope union was a Victorian Temperance movement that began in Leeds about 1847...pointed mainly at Children if produced a mass of stuff, including their own Hymn Book..which might be what you've got.

Derek.

Hello again Derek

Have found a couple of books
Christ Church Sunday School - Christmas 1888
United Kingdom Band of Hope Union November 1888 These were awarded as prizes to my Grandad Thomas. Thought maybe they married there and wondered if you have this type of record (You do seem to have nearlly everything covered)

You did say that you had lots of info on the Lion & Tigress as well - fingers crossed

Thank you so much for your help and your time,even though my questions aren't very exciting!!!

Just don't know how you find enough hours in the day

Jenny

Hi Derek

I will try to explain a litte better.

I appreciate that Smalley was in the chapelry of Morley, but the Derbyshire Archive hold records specifically for Smalley dating back to 1623. I am not saying that the information wasn't also recorded in the Morley records. The film I searched was M334 and I extracted all the Redgate's from the film and along with the help of the Smalley one place study site I have a large collection of Redgates. So I am not looking for John's descendants. If John 1683 did died in 1687 then the George & Elizabeth are not my 7 x gt grandparents after all and I am looking for another John. I hope this has made it clearer.

Carol

Hi Derek,
Thanks for the update on Mary Revell.

In the good old days you could go to the library and look up Parish Records on CD's prepared by the LDS, as well as the 1881 census. This was fantastic back then, really useful and accurate.
When their site came on line it was not quite as easy or accurate.
As I've hinted previously nowadays if IGI say it's snowing I have the white icy crystals annalised and still remain sceptical before starting a Snow man!!

Warwick

There are no Smalley Parish records..all baptisms marriages and burials are listed as having taken place at Smalley...but as I said Smalley was in the Partish of Morley..and it the records from the PARISH that we have....so Morley Parish records show John Redgate baptised at Smalley 1687..buried Smalley 1728........all recorded in the Morley Parish records.

If John Redgate is your Ancestor..he will have had chidren..which you have yet to confirm......if he is not your Ancester then he could have been born 1683 died 1687..otherwise he must have survived long enough to have married and had children.
What information have you for later Redgates?

I'm trying to help you here, but you're gving me nothing.

Derek.

Hi Derek

The information I have on John Redgate born 1683 did not come from the IGI, but the parish records of Smalley. So he definitly exists. There are several submitted records on the IGI, but there is also a extracted one for him. Source number 1042078 says this information was taken from Smalley PR's 1626 -1985. I did find the entry for John 1687, but no source information is given. I don't trust the IGI, extracted entries or otherwise, that is why I asked for an original entry look up. The only thing I need confirming at the moment is if it was a burial or baptism from the original records.

Thanks again
Carol

Carol..the baptism in 1687 comes directly from the Morley Parish records......and there are no earlier Baptisms.the so-called burial of John redgate 1687 is a "submitted" and therfore susoect entry from IGI.

I need you to confirm the other information I sent..about his marriage and his children so that i know i have the right person...which will confirm the birth in 1687 and the death in 1728........

The births of both George and elizabeth are unreadable...but nevertheless are there..as is the marriage in 1682.......the baptism says son of George..not Elizabeth..you won't get both parents that far back.....and the birth of John Redgate 1683 Could have been the burial........and then they replaced him??

of course..if you don't have Alice Calladine..their child Lydia who married Francis Lee and had children who lived and died in Pinxton...then I'm wrong and i resign forthwith! lol

Derek.

Hi Derek

Thanks again for your trouble. Can I ask where the information was from that it was a baptism & not a burial. George Redgate & Elizabeth also had a John bapt 1683 which makes me think it may have been him being buried in 1687. No earlier burials were found at Smalley Also does it say 'son of George & Elizabeth'

Thanks again
Carol

Hello again Carol.........

There are a couple of silly "submitted" enries on IGI showing John Redgate both being baptised AND buried 21.05.1687....obviously nonsense.

Luckily I know what i'm doing, and have good documentation from a previous enquiry for John Redgate. it may have been done for you.

Smalley is in the Parish of Morley..became an Ecclesiastical parish in 1877...and is in the registration District of Belper.

JOHN REDGATE baptised 21.05.1687..buried 27.04.1728.

He was the son of George Redgate and Elizabeth nee Turpin..who married 01.05.1682....

John marrried ALICE CALLADINE 03.06.1718.......and their daughter Lydia was baptised 08.09.1721....Lydia (Lee) was buried at Pinxton 02.02.1795.

All these events took place at Smalley in the Parish of Morley....except of course the death of Lydia.

I have the parish records for both Morley and Pinxton..so I think you can rely on this information.

Please come back any time for anything else i can help you with.

Derek.

Hello again Derek.

me again

Can you do me another favour the next time you go to Matlock please.
It is just one entry I would like checking for the parish of Smalley. I have just gone back to a line I haven't done any research on for years and discovered I missed something out in my notes the last time I was there. (it must have been a long day) The entry is for John Redagte 21 May 1687. I forgot to write down if it was a baptism or burial or any other info on the entry.

Thanks very much
Carol

Derek,

Thanks for the information... I think I checked other trees when I first did my tree usually checking against IGI, but tjese were when first began 2 years ago. I thought some were doubious. I appreciate any factual information you can find, as I would prefer to be as accurate, which is why I contacted you!

When I am adding ancestors these days it makes me howl, when I see people put information on that just can't be right!

So if you find out the correct connections it would be greatly appreciated

Thanks
Mark

w

Ok Mark.......good news and bad........something is very wrong..and I think it stems from a very annoying habit of people using other people's Ancestry trees without doing their own Research.which has long since bugged me since i found my mother (died 2001 ashes interred by me personally in Bristol) apparently buried in three different American States.

No suggestion that you've done this, but there are several trees on Ancestry with the same information you've got.

Such was my concern that i spent five hours at Matlock yesterday going through the Upper Langwith and Scarcliffe records with a fine tooth comb on your behalf.

Fact:---JONATHAN MARSH married Sarah GERVASE.GERVOIS....

Fact:- Sarah Revel(l) married John Gervas/Gervois......at Chesterfield 1741

Fact:- Sarah Revell baptised 11/06 1720..daughter of Francis Revell and Sarah Woollens.

Submitted IGI entry Sarah revell born 1720 Chesterfield married John gervas 1741........at Chesterfield.

I have now a complete and entirely authenticated History of the Revells from Francis (1681 not 1690) back to 1550......which tells us that SARAH REVELL baptised 11.06.1720 Upper Langwith daughter of Francis Revell and Sarah nee Woollens (married 24.06.1712 at Clowne) actually married JAMES TAYLOR of Scarcliffe 09.12.1746 by Licence at Upper Langwith.........

which rather puts the cat among the pigeons..and at first sight..you,and several others, are chasing the wrong Revells..........which sort of puts all my very detailed research of the Parentage of Francis Revell firmly in the bin!

I can't find Sarah Woollens because i don't have the Clowne records...but it begins to look as if she' irrelevant anyway.

I would be glad to hear your comments..and where we go from here, because i hhave now got my teeth very firmly into this!

All the best.

Derek.

Derek,

Thanks for the message.

My post concerned the Francis Revill born in the 1690s who married Sarah Woollens around 1717. They had daughter Sarah Revill in the 1720s in Langwith. She, it seems married a John Gervais or Jarvis. Their daughter Sarah Gervais married Jonathan Marsh in 1764 in Langwith.

So any information on Revills/Woollens/or Gervais or Jarvis to fill in the detail or possibly to fill the gap between then and 1841.

Thanks
Mark

Sorry Derek fingers not working at same speed as brain, Thomas and Elizabeth parents of Walter not William

Susan

Sorry Susan..Typo error:

Walter Rutland married Ann Hooson 17.08.1762........William baptised 22.11.1764 at Stanton by Bridge.....Walter and Ann marriecd at Brailsford.

I too have the Thomas and Elizabeth information as parents of Walter.NOT William...)..William's father is confirmed as Walter.by Stanton PR's)...... I am not sure about,Thomas and Elizabeth so witheld...was trying to find if Richard 26.01.1739 might be brother to Walter..being the son of Thomas and Dorothy......

Plenty more if you want it.....I also have the later children of THOMAS and SARAH BIRD after they moved to Longford.

Derek.

Hi Derek

At last I have found a little time to get back to you regarding the Rutland family.

I have William and Ann Hooson in my tree but no details of their marriage or birth places. It was suggested to me by another GR member that Williams parents were Thomas Rutland born 1710 in Egginton and Elizabeth unknown and that the parents of Thomas were Walter Rutland born 1685 in Egginton and Sarah Bale born about 1689 in Denby, possible marriage in 1709 in St Peter Derby. I have not added these to my tree as they are not confirmed.

I have confirmed the marriage of William Rutland (1818) and Emma Clark / Stone and William James (born 1844 Longford) and Mary Ann Gregson born 1864 Overseal. My line follows Walter 1741, Thomas 1790, William 1818, William James 1844 and James William 1885.
James William and William James both moved from Longford to Burton. Have opened by tree for you to take a look.

If I am correct Mary Ann Gregsons family also came from the Longford / Ashbourne area. Believe her father was James and grandfather Charles.

Derek, I wonder if you could recheck something for me. The marriage date of Walter and Ann Hooson and the baptism date of their son William is the same, is this right?

Dont know anything about the other Rutlands but I guess they could be connected somewhere along the line.

How lucky that the family decided to stay in the same area to make research easier. I really appreciate your help.
Thanks again,

Susan

:-)

Susan...Emma Stone was in fact EMMA CLARK..who married Thomas Stone in 1833..she was born 1811.......

Derek

WOW.

Thank you so much for taking time to find all that info. Its amazing !

As far as I am aware the family originate from the Longford Area. My branch ended up in Burton before moving to Warwickshire. I have so many unanswered questions I could go on forever. I am trying to confirm my direct line to start with and filling in where I can when people are kind enough to share information.

I am falling asleep at the PC so will take a closer look tomorrow and get back to you.

Again many thanks
Susan :-)

Hello Susan..sorry fro the delay...but this is one of the enquiries I love to get my teeth into.so I have gone further than you asked....and re-written the Domesday Book!! (not quite)

Your family story seems to originate in Ashbourne..Osmaston by Ashbourne..Brailsford...Longford..Stanton by Bridge...Wlaton on the Hill..and probably Church broughton........

If you keep a clear head, you should not get confused if I go Chronologically with what I've found.....none of which is supposition..all of it which is original Parish record stuff..no secondary sources...

04.04.1741 St Oswalds Ashbouurne..WALTER RUTLAND son of Thomas.

WALTER RUTLAND married ANN HOOSON of Brailsford..at Brailsford 22.11.1764

WILLIAM RUTLAND bapt Osmaston by Ashbourne son of Walter and Ann 22.11.1764

The same WILLIAM RUTLAND married ELIZABETH BAKEWELL at Sutton on the Hill..02.02.1785 (Mary born Church Broughton 1762)


One of their children was THOMAS RUTLAND 12.01.1790 at Longford.
(I don't have the Longford Pr's so can go no further at the moment with that generation.

THOMAS RUTLAND 1790 0f Longford...married SARAH BIRD at Stanton by Banns 22.10.1811..and had the following children at Stanton by Bridge.(.maybe more at Longford) :-
Frances 07.11.1814
WILLIAM 1704.1818..married Emma Stone
Sarah 20.09.1820

Clearly I can follow this through..depending on how much you've got and how much more you'd like...........

SARAH BIRD.........was baptisedd at Stabton by Bridge 12.12.1787....daughter of THOMAS BIRD and SARAH nee HOLT who married at Stanton 20.11.1785

Sarah had the following siblings baptised Stanton:

Elizabeth 01.05.1786
Alice 10.10.1790...married Thomas Poxon 25.12.1809
Thomas 06.05.1797

I have found a gravestone in Longford Churchyard...."ANN wife of WALTER RUTLAND died 04.11.1797 aged 67"

There are a couple mor Rutland that I cannoy yet tie into your family..from Osmaston by Ashbourne birthplace of Walter..they are:

RICHARD RUTLAND son of Thomas and Dorothy 26.01.1739..and his son Thomas 18.07.1762............maybe a link to Walter 1741.

\anything else you need, just yell

Derek.