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Here's something for you ladies..that will really drive you nuts11

Have ound that ELIZABETH FORD born Derby 1888 actually married a guy called Joseph Vaughan........so ahe is out of the picture......
However we think that Elizabeth A Adams married edgar Ward in 1919..Elizabeth A as in Elizabeth Ann???

Elizabeth Ann Ford was born in Willington (Burton upon trent RD 11) 27.01.1889.....appears on both 1891 and 1901 once as daughter and once as grand-daughter..of james Ford and Elizabeth................
In 1891 there is a son of james and Elizabeth aged 20 called William.and Elizabeth Ann......in 1901 William has disappeared..and Elizabeth is grand-daughter.
Parish records show her baptism 27.01.1889.............mother only called Ruth.

Ruth is unmarried and her name is BAMFORD!!!!!

oh joy!!!

I agree Derek - we just have to be patient and wait for those certs. :-(

Dea x

Good morning Anne and Dea............after an almost fruitless visit to Matlock records Office I'm reporting for duty!!

Not entirely fruitless because one or two things are clearer in my mind.

1. We can only find the truth through Marriage and Birth certificates..because no matter what we glean from Registrations of Births and Marriages, we will not get anything other than a Registration District..with no idea which Parish any event has taken place. Thus we can mess around with William and Elizabeths till we're blue in the face, and get nowhere.
2.We have few facts...as in FACTS:
a..William Adams married an Elizabeth in 1898 and had half a dozen children in and around Repton by 1913
.He is NOT the husband of the Elizabeth who married Edgar Ward in 1919 (Edgar was born 1890 and his wife in 1888)
We have three children born in 1913..1916...and 1917 all in the Burton upon Trent r.D. and all with the mother's name FORD...and really that is all we have.

I do not at this stage have any information that the mother of these three children was called Elizabeth.except that Anne says Doris' parents were William and Elizabeth Adams..who appear on no Census or anywhere else.


We know there is an Elizabeth Ford born somewhere in the DERBY r.d. IN DECEMBER 1888....but have no idea WHERE in derbyshire..and we know that an Elizabeth Adams born 1888 married edgar Ward..the same person?? unproven.

A Birth Certificate for Doris Vera may solve the problem....but we may have to go for a couple of marriages as well.......Trouble is.......they're not listed.

Interestingly, and possibly deadly, is the fact that the three Adams children with mother FORD..appear not to have Baptisms...the marriage of William Adams to Elizabeth Ford appears not to exist...........one reason for this may revert back to Anne's suggestion of a Romany origin..which would normally account for lack of Baptism.......
At the moment I am rejecting the Repton family of Adams'...which means rejecting william George 1905...and leaving another William sibling of Doris Vera as yet unfound..........
Let's all have a nice cup of tea, or a massive Scotch and wait for the Marriage certificate!
Derek

Hi Dea, I had no idea! That is very interesting, thank you. Anne x

For your info Anne - the 1939 census was used as a data base to help set up the information for he National Health Service when it was first formed.

It has been continually updated up until around 1991 so when a person married the names were crossed through on the original and their new married name added so that is why the name Gargun appears even though she wasn't married until 1950.

Dea x

OK, well, an 1888 Elizabeth Ford would fit our profile (better than the 1874 one) as she would have been young enough to have gone on to have more children with Edgar Ward. :-) xx

This is the Elizabeth I was looking at Derek:

Births Dec 1888 (>99%)
FORD Elizabeth Ann Burton 6b 337

Dea x

Dea says the Elizabeth A who married Edgar Ward in 1919..was born 12.12.1888.....but this is a problem..becasue the Elizabeth who married William Adams was born 1874 and married 1897......

So the Elizabeth A who married Edgar is not the Elizabeth who married William......

Incidentally there is an Elizabeth Ford born Derby R>D 1888.............more from La La Land later!!

I am sorry Derek but I can't stop laughing! You are so funny and so right - what a muddle it all is! :-D

Yes I promise that I read everything you write Derek! I don't know what my brain is doing atm - don't forget I have been struggling with the 'melting pot from hell' for longer than you two have. I think it was just that I found Elizabeth was called Elizabeth A Adams and not just Ward. I think?!

And I know I am adding petrol to the flames - and this is a bit off piste - but I have found further details for June G Ward who was mentioned on Dea's 1939 Census. We know she was the daughter of Edgar and Elizabeth A Ward and was born in 1932.

She married a man named Roman Gargun (b1930 d2010) in 1950 in Shardlow district. But why and how was she named Gargun in the 1939 census - a good 11 years before she married Roman? :-S

I'm going to bloody Matlock !! .right now!!!..interesting intervention by Dea...Hi Dea, thanks for joining in......and for adding to the Melting Pot of Hell.....

see you later xx

Oh...if Doris' father William died during the First World War...is he the same man who was siring Leslie T 1916..and Elizabeth A in 1917?????..and I gave you the \edgar Ward marriage last night..are you reading my work??? lol

Hi Dea, Oh dear this total mire of my husband's has sucked you in now has it?! :-D Nice to have you on board and thank you very much for helping!

Just to reiterate - the things that the family are certain (?) of are that William Adams (Doris Vera Adams' Father) died during the First World War. Elizabeth (Doris Vera's Mother) remarried in about 1919 and had more children. And the consensus is that her new name was Ward.

It is very interesting that you have located an Edgar Ward married to an Elizabeth living in Shardlow in 1939 because I have just found out ...... drum roll ....... Doris Vera Adams got married in 1933 to Harold George Hodgson somewhere in SHARDLOW! Their first house was in Risley.

What do you reckon Derek? The world might not be going mad after all?!!! :-)


EDIT
I have found their marriage:

Edgar Ward married Elizabeth A Adams in 1919 (4Q) in Burton-Upon-Trent!

It's me again - sorry but I am getting a little over excited on this one ;-)


Could the George William below be your William George ?

Adams Household (4 People) Milton,Derby , Repton R.D., Derbyshire, England
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First name(s) Last name(s) DOB Occupation
George W Adams 11 Dec 1905 Farm Labourer
William Adams 27 Sep 1874 Estate Carpenter
Elizabeth Adams 31 Jun 1874 Unpaid Domestic Duties
Emily Williams (Adams) 29 Jul 1916 Domestic Servant

This would mean that William Snr. was still with Elizabeth in 1939 ??

Looking at Emily's details below I am even more intrigued :

Births Sep 1916
Adams Emily Bauford Burton 6b 623
(The mm name on the image looks to me like BAMFORD !!)

Dea x

Hope you won't mind me butting in here but this looks like the couple who married in 1919 on 1939 census nd 'that' Elizabeth was born many years later than the one you are looking for ?

Ward Household (3 People) "Stone Lea" Dale Road , Shardlow R.D., Derbyshire, England
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First name(s) Last name(s) DOB Occupation
Edgar Ward 19 Nov 1890 Lorry Driver
Elizabeth A Ward 12 Dec 1888 Unpaid Domestic Duties
June G Gargun (Ward) 13 Jun 1932 At School

Hope those certs confirm you theory Derek - I am looking forward to finding out !

Dea x

EDIT - There are 3 closed records on the image which are probably further children born before June G.

Dea x

Just in passing....there is another sibling born AMJ 1917...Burton on Trent..ELIZABETH A ..mother maiden name FORD.....
So now we have three definite Ward siblings...but no William that can be confirmed in that family....MMN Ford..............we have a different William of the right date with parents William and Elizabeth...........

I actually think that parents married in 1898 in might be a bit long in the tooth to be having children 17 and 18 years later...at an approximate age of 42?.........These days yes.....but in Victorian times??????

Searching for a marriage for EDGAR WARD at Burton 1919 brings up OND 1919 to a lady called WARD..........why not a full name??
So searching for an ELIZABETH WARD marriage at Burton 1919 brings up OND 1919 in whci a guy called WARD..no first name..married Elizabeth A Ward..which is the first tine we have anything other thsn plain Elizabeth.

The world's going mad!!

That is lovely, thank you very much Derek - but you must let me pay for the certificates! Have sent you a PM. Anne :-)

PS I am not worried that you will have to kill yourself in a particularly gruesome way as you are unsurpassed when it comes to sniffing out a family line - therefore, I rest easy :-D

Ok.....the Records clearly state the children of William and Elizabeth as i have told you..including William George...........and unless Doris and Lesley are of a totally different family then they too have the same parents..

I can assure you also that a certain William Adams married a certain Elizabeth Bamford as and when I stated....they are in the Registration of marriages 1897.......whether they are the parents of the above family either on the 1911..or the later ones Doris and Lesley..I cannot be sure............

If my reasoning is wrong, then the children of William and Elizabeth as on the 1911..then the children post 1911..i.e. 1913 and 1916..are of a totally different family of William and Elizabeth nee Ford........who do not seem to exist anywhere.....then I might kill myself in a distinctly gruesome way!!

The dates of all the children see to hang together very nicely from 1898 through possibly to 1916..as being one family.

So, in answer to your plea of where go from here, the only way to go is to purchase a couple of Certificates as I intimated in my last message. I will do this myself, because i can get them cheaper than you can, and because I never get beat!!
What I'm going to do is this..and don't worry i don't expect you to pay.......
We need the marriage Certificate for William Adams and Elizabeth Bamford and a Birth Certificate for Doris V Adams...which together will tell us the Occupation of William Adams..who we hope will be a Carpenter so of William the Joiner.......in the meantime relax and let me do the worrying....

EDIT..ok..have ordered a Birth Certificate for Doris Vera Adams...........we know that her mother's maiden name will come back as FORD...........but it will tell us the father's occupation.the first step in pinning down which William Adams we're looking for................if it comes back as "Carpenter"..his wife was Bamford not Ford..anything else..and we have the wrong family....and if they turn out to be gypsies, as you intimate........then we're in the smelly stuff!

It will take about a week,

Derek

Hi Derek,

I have never heard of Foremark and I don't know that area at all so your info was very enlightening, thank you :-)

But I am befuddled. Doris Vera's daughter is sure that there was only one brother and he was named William Adams – so your William George Adams sounds right.

However, she has never heard of any of the others that you have found. She says there were more siblings from Elizabeth's subsequent marriage to Mr (Edgar?) Ward (in about 1919). She remembers a Ronnie from that marriage and there may have been more little Wards but she is adamant that her Mum only had William as a brother before her Grandad died?! However, I know from my own family tree that families can be tricky – I found an elder brother for my own Granny that I had never heard of - but I am now not sure what to make of our findings.

On top of your findings I found a Leslie Adams born in 1916 in BOT whose mother was also named Ford. So he looks like a contender for the position of sibling to Doris Vera too. But no-one in the family has heard of him either.

I have been looking for info regarding a William Adams (whose Father was a carpenter) marrying an Elizabeth Bamford but I can't find anything – but neither can I find a William Adams marrying an Elizabeth Ford!

I have been told by her Grand-daughter that Elizabeth died in the 1960s in Derby.

I hate it when I can't see the wood for the trees! This I why I liked doing my own tree as I knew a lot of about my ancestors to start with as my family were very good at telling tales of long ago about members of the family.

Not sure what I should be doing now Derek? How do I unravel this? :-S

Hi Anne............the brother you are looking for is WILLIAM GEORGE ADAMS Reg Staffordshire(!) JAS 1906......(tamworth)

Background information of which you may not be aware.
I know the area very well. You may not know that Burton on trent could never really make up its mind whether it was in Derbyshire or Staffs....Repton, Milton, Foremark, and Burton are all within spitting distance of each other..thus all the Census entries for this Adams family show both Repton and Milton as places of Birth..and Tamworth is the neighbouring Reg Dist.
The popular Baptism place of the children of William and Elizabeth was FOREMARK..which has its own Parish Registers, but nothing is left of the village except Foremark House.
I have the baptisms of the children of William and Elizabeth...at Foremark:-

Emma 29.05.1899
Harriet 27.10.1901
WILLIAM GEORGE 21.01.1906
Elizabeth Helen 15.03.1908
Myrtle January 1911..........registered JFM 1911 as Catherine Myrtle Adams

..all baptised to William and Elizabeth at Foremark..but three of them registered in STAFFORDSHIRE at tamworth.......

Now..I want you to look at recurring names..William.....three generations....Harriet was Williams mother..Elizabeth..Emma. Mary (Williams gr grand mother. and his sister..as was an Elizabeth) etc.......

A bit of either nonsense or sheer bloody brilliance coming up..for you to mull over...

Suppose Elizabeth Ford was in fact Elizabeth BAMford???????? and somehow or another a mistranscription or whatever.......the BAM was lost......

WE know that William's wife was born Milford/Repton in 1874
ELIZABETH BAMFORD was baptised repton 29.03.1874 daughter of Thomas and EMMA.....

We know form the 1911 that William and Elizabeth had been married 13 years..
WIlliam Adams married Elizabeth Bamford AMJ 1897.....

Elizabeth Bamford ceases to exist after 1891..........

Elizabeth Bamford had three siblings Mary, William and Ellen as well as a mother Emma........

we need a Marriage certificate for William Adams and Elizabeth Bamford which will give us his fathers name and occupation.........we're looking for William Adams born repton 1875 ..a Carpenter..with father William a Joiner.....

'd be interested in your response!!

Derek

PS Derek - there has been the suggestion from family members that Elizabeth Ford might have been from a Romany Gypsy clan?! :-S

Oooh you are good Derek! What a lot of information you have come up with from not very much at all.
So . . . . we have confirmation that Doris Vera Adams was born in 1913 and her mother was a Ford.
I have also found a record of a Leslie T Adams born 1916 BOT whose mother is also down as 'Ford'? Might be a sibling?
But I can't find her brother William as there are at least 10 entries between 1897 and 1910 for a William Adams born in Burton upon Trent with no mention of their mother's maiden name :-(
I have also been told that William Adams senior - Doris Vera's Father - was conscripted in the First World War and died during it - but don't know where or how.
Many thanks for all of the info :-D xx