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Hi Derek
Further to my previous message.........have now had a fair chunk of time to look at the info you kindly gave me......Sorry its took so long.........lifes pretty manic just recently.

Dont quite know what the old devil Charles Gregson was made of..........he certainly had some stamina.....would love to know the whole story.......with him, Mary Rowbotham and anybody else who may have come into contact with him.......Cant believe the age gap with the children.....

Am really happy with the details of the Gregsons you were able to give me and am sure we have the correct Mary Ann, daughter of James and Mary..........
have a couple of questions if you don’t mind then I’ll leave you in peace..........for a while at least !!!!
As Mary Ann was born / baptised at Overseal, can I safely assume it was a “one off” and that the rest of the brood were all born / baptised in Longford ? I have her siblings as

Charles 1839
Sarah Ann 1840
John 1842
William 1844
Joseph 1854
Alfred 1856 and
Mary Ann 1866

Are these correct? there seem to be some large gaps between some births.......perhaps James was giving his wife a rest....!!! or perhaps he was trying to compete with his father Charles......lol ;-)

Susan

Hi Derek

Thanks so much for taking the time to do this. Beginning to think they never actually got married.

Carole

Hello Carole..although I have found John and Elizabeth Leigh on the census returns..Elizabeth was born at Adlington Cheshire..I can find no record of any marriage in either Cheshire or Derbyshire..but I'll keep looking.

Derek.

Mark......you won't get a marriage certificate that far back..it is merely an entry in the Parish record, for which it may be possible to get a photocopy..

Ignore the Ireland connection..it is,as you suggest just someone not doing their own research, and perpetuating someone else's mistake. or worse someone manipulating the truth in order give credence to their version of fact.

As you know, I have the Scarcliffe PR's...and Jonathan had some children with Sarah in Scarcliff...

Derek.

Hi Derek,

One further question when you have time.

Jonathan Marsh, who married Sarah Gervois/Jarvis in 1765 in Langwith was born in either 1735 or 1745. You checked the marriage licence at Matlock a couple of years ago. You found he was from Clowne.

Quite a number of people have added an IGI record of a Jonathon Marsh being born in Ireland in 1745. Is this a case of people adding any record without any facts to support it.

Also, wonderd when you next go to Matlock, would it be possible to obtain a copy of the marriage licence?

Regards
Mark

Hi Derek,

Thanks for your reply, and settling my mind! Just gradually going through my tree and reviewing the information in it

Cheers
Mark

No Mark..I think you're ok..BENJAMIN MARSH baptised 23.07.1807..son of William and Amelia........at "Furnace" Scarcliff...............other baptisms on the same page mention "The Furnace" Scarcliff.......and refers to the Blast Furnace in the locality
1841 he is married ..living at Clowne
1851 back in Scarcliffe as a widower....lodger working as Farm labourer
1861 Brimington Widower, with two daughters Ironstone labourer.

You can ignore the different ages..one of the vagaries of The censuses, rounded up or down...we know when he was baptised...

Can't see any problem.

Derek.

Hi Derek,

Just a quick question re Benjamin Marsh born c1807 Scarcliffe, son of William and Ameila Marsh. I found him in 1851 listed as Benn Marsh in Scarcliiffe, but in 1841 I added Benjamin Marsh living in Clowne. Just reviewing my tree, I have justed checked the record for 1861 and wondering if I am mixing-up two Ben Marshs as in 1861 he is recorded as bein born in 1803 in Whaley Furnace, Derbyshire (tried to google this but found no reference)
Any thoughts
Regards
Mark

Derek,

Thank you.

Sheila

Hello Derek
I am hoping you can find a marriage of John Leigh (Lee) to Elizabeth Mollard around 1830. The family did live in Bollington Cheshire but I am unable to find a marriage there. I am wondering if they married in Derbyshire as John was born in Milton Derbys (presumably Tunstead Milton) c1805.
I would be so grateful as I have been unable to go any further back on my Leigh side and I have been looking for ages.

Carole

Good Afternoon Derek.......thanks for your PM......am so sorry didn't get back to you yesterday was out most of the day with 101 things to do. Was itching to get back to the PC for an update on my ancestors.........how sad am I ??? This genealogy lark kind of gets under your skin.!!!!

Anyway....now that I am back... Thank you very very much for the information you have given to me. I will never be able to thank you enough..........Need now to digest it and enter it on my tree.....don't like to put anything on that is not correct. Will work through it in a while and get back if I have any questions.

In the mean time thank you again so much for your help,....keep up the good work.

Will speak again soon as I guess I will be back.......lol

Susan
:-) :-D :-) :-D :-)

Hello Sheila..you might be interested in the following Civil registrations in the Civil registration District of Derby:-

Marina Gertrude Else married John George Hill last Qr 1909

John G. Hill died 2nd Qr 1914

Marina Hill married John McClure 3rd Qtr 1917

You say that her father was George Else.......I believe he was a widower in 1891..his wife probably having died during or shortly after the birth of Marina.

Derek.

Derek,

I am looking for a possible marriage in Derby. The person I am looking for was a widow.

Marina Gertrude Hill maiden name Else. Her father was George Else.

I think she may have married someone by the name of John McClure in 1917.

Can you confirm this please?

Sheila

Thank you Derek. I will accept that no more can be done. I did think that maybe some info. may have been passed down through their children in the family and will see if there is anyone I can contact.

Thank you again for all your kind help. Sonya

Hello Sonya..i am completely happy with my findings that unfortunately conflict with your correspondent Neil...........your Marsden ended up in London..and all the others stayed north..I think the lancashire one's are a red herring........and I also think the lack of a proven marriage to Emma Storey is irrelevant to the weight of evidence...............I think you have to weigh it up for yourself, and accept that there is never going to be a perfect fit, without some form of documentation that neither of us has access to.
"Who do you think you Are" on the telly..has all the help from Archivists all over the place who are only too pleased to do Searches cos it gets them on the telly..that would cost you and I hundreds of Pounds!..and a lot of travelling!!

I honestly think i've done as well as anyone can that is not a professional, and expensive archivist.

Derek.

ok..continuing on from the message below:-

with CHARLES GREGSON 13.07.1744..married MARY LANGDALE at Sutton on the Hill 1762........he seemed to spread it around a bit and there are several children that i think are his, but can't confirm....

Confirmed children of CHARLES GREGSON and Mary nee Langdale:-

Elizabeth 1760..daughter of mary ;-) ;-) ;-)
Sarah 18.08.1765
Samuel 07.03.1773
John 12.05.1770
William 1767
CHARLES GREGSON 17.10.1763 (at Sutton on the Hill)

CHARLES GREGSON 1763 is the amazing old goat who is still around on the 1841 census...................and interesting time he had too!! several children it would be easy to give to him......but first ..ANNE ROWBOTHAM who appears on the 1861 Census..enigmatically as a sister...........

She was born at Brassington in 1800..the same year that Charles Gregson (1763) married a certain MARY ROWBOTHAM at Brassington 31.03.1800...oohlala........Anne Rowbotham was therefore being carried by Mary and was probably born and baptised just before mary married Charled...so is thus the eldest child (that we're sure of) of charles and mary..and the eventual sister of JAMES GREGSON 1814!!........but she retained her Rowbotham name and never married..........might be a more interesting story than that if we could find it..because he really was an old goat..born 1763.....Mary Rowbotham baptised 24.05.1781 daughter of Henry and Elizabeth......and therefore could have been as young as 18 when he married her....and her child!!!..wow. you'll see the age difference on the 1841...backed up by my report!


Relevant childre of these two lovebirds..were..

SAMUEL 22.04.1809
JAMES 24.07.1814
JOHN 08.09.1806
Kitty 02.05.1808
Hannah 20.12.1803
Samuel 1812............and probably one or two others.....

James married Mary Ann Twigg 1838........who had Charles in 1839..who marries HARRIET FOSSE..who had Mary gregson in 1866 who married William Rutland........................and they all lived happily ever after.......

How is that!!!

Derek.

Hello Susan...I am now quite sure that you're sure!!....I would not worry too much about Mary Gregson being born at Overseal in Leicestershire..why not..its close..and maybe James and Mary were visiting friends.Mary was ill??....whatever..she is the right mary Gregson and she did marry your man Rutland........job done.
What i have here for you is my own research..not as on Ancestry a bit if guesswork here and there........although there is one tree on there that is actually quite accurate..until you get back to 1711........My research for the early days is from parish records..hence the accurate Baptism dates..bear in mind these are NOT Birthdates........worry not about the anomalies in Census dates and ages.....the baptsim dates are accurate..but often give no real indication at what age the child was baptised........this doesn't nee to confuse you, its one of the rules of the game.......

There are Gregsons to William 1572 and his daughter Anne 1592..and John son of John 15.09.1611..but to attempt to lnk them into later gregson would be fanciful.......and i have parents for Charles 1667..but don't believe them..so..

So we start with CHARLES GREGSON Longford 1667..and his wife ANN (unknown) 1671..who had the following children at Longford:_

Mary and Sarah both baptised 25.10.1693..not necessarily twins
Charles 03.06.1696
John 20.02.1698 died in infancy...followed by
John 10.05.1700..brother William died in infancy 07.06.1700
William 14.12.1703
Ann 10.02.1704..there are a couple of still births before..
HENRY GREGSON 24.06.1711

HENRY GREGSON married MARY NORTH of Etwall at Etwall in 1734 and had the following children at Longford:-

Thomas 28.09.1736
Mary 24.04.1738
William 21.04.1742
CHARLES 13.07.1744.....
Hannah 29.09.1747

Have to go for a while..will continue ASAP
ADDITION......you've done well.........Overseal is in the Ashby de la Zouch registration district.........so the birth of Mary Gregson 1866 is the correct one..as is the death of her mother in october 1869 ( was holding that one back for you and you've spoilt my fun!!

Also..and it's as much as i can at this moment..I can confirm the following RUTLAND children of William and mary..... baptisms:-
Emma Rutland 01.03.1891 at Long Lane
Florry 30.04.1893 at Long Lane
Arthur 24.02.1895 at Longford
Hannah Ada 29.11.1896 at Longford.......

Derek.

WOW Derek........I knew you would sort this out......what would we do without you ?

Posted my message just before I saw yours, hope I haven't confused matters, was trying to confirm what I was sure of.

Am happy with information you have found. Please dont worry too much if you cant find where James and Mary were married. I have since found the civil registration and can get copy marriage cert.

Looking forward to the full history.
Many Many thanks for your help
Susan :-)

Good Afternoon Derek......Thank you so much for taking the time to get back to me.
MARY ANN is certainly a bit of an enigma.....:-S

In the 1871 census records.....I found a Mary A Gregson born abt 1864 daughter of John and Sarah living at Square, Seals, Leicestershire (Ashby de la Zouch) along with her brother William J Gregson born about 1869........census shows father John and daughter MARY being born in Longford, Derbyshire and mother Sarah and son William born in OVERSEAL ?........BUT another 1871 census shows MARY ANN living with her “brother” Charles and shows her birth place as Leicester, Overseal....brother Charles being born Longford.

1881 show several MARY’s ..........MARY at 48 Macklin Street, St Werburgh born 1687 at Derby, MARY ANN at 1, Court 3 66 Burton Rd, St Werburgh born 1867 at Derby, living at home daughter of George and Hannah, and MARY ANN (who I believed was mine) at 1, Regent Street, Litchurch born Overseal 1866

I have taken MARY’S birth place as being OVERSEAL from the census records of 1891, 1901 and 1911 after she married William and I was sure I had the right Mary.

I am absolutely certain that William Rutland married MARY (no Ann included in name) as confirmed by copy marriage certificate. I am 99.9% sure that the children of the marriage I have are also correct....
James William born 1885 at Longford, Derbyshire,
John Thomas born 1887 at Shardlow Hall, Derbyshire,
Joe born 1889 at Long Lane (Thurvaston) Derbyshire,
Emma born 1891 at Thurvaston, Derbyshire
Florence born 1892 at Oleston, Derbyshire
Arthur born 1894 at Longford, Derbyshire
Hannah Ada born 1896 at Longford, Derbyshire
Susan Violet born 1899 at Longford, Derbyshire
Alfred Charles born 1901 at Longford, Derbyshire

James William was my GG Father, I don’t have a copy of his birth cert but have a copy of one from another tree for John Thomas, his brother born 1887. This confirms his parents as William Ruttland (with TT instead of single T) and MARY ANN Ruttland formally GREGSON. Father Agricultural Labourer.

Now to throw a spanner in the works..........I have found a 2 civil birth registrations...one for a MARY A GREGSON, April 1866 Ashby de la Zouch. Vol 7a page 90 and one for MARY ANN GREGSON, Jan 1867 Derby. Vol 7b, Page 418.......It seems we have a couple of MARYS in the picture now. I will await your thoughts before ordering any copy certs to confirm parentage.

You previously checked for me to confirm Mary Ann Twiggs parentage when I was driving you crazy with my Rutlands so I feel sure that the information is correct.....I know you only deal in the real stuff......lol

1871 census for Mary Twigg / Gregson also lists a sister Anne Rowbotham born about 1800 Brassington, don’t know if James or Marys sister. Maybe some help ??????? Unless of course it should be sister in law !!!!!

Hope I haven’t confused you even more ........just trying to give you all I know..
Just a thought, wonder if Mary Twigg went to stay with relatives for daughter Marys birth...BUT who or where are the rellies??

Looking forward to anything else you can come with, many thanks for your help so far

Susan
:-D :-D :-D :

Edit : Have found a death record for MARY GREGSON Oct 1869 registered Ashby de la Zouch Vol 7a Page 51. Age at death 50 born about 1819 (wonder if this is Mary Twigg) and this is why MARY staying with her brother in 1871

I tin I've sorted it...............back to 1667...........!!!

Just a note that I may have missed........JOHN GREGSON 03.01.1819 Longford...the son of John and Maria Gregson........married MARTHA...fron Marston in Yorkshire..can't find the marriage yet....

In 1851 they were living at Whitfield near Glossop..and their first son THOMAS was born 1851..registered at Glossop...........by 1861 they had moved back to Longford where they had SAMUEL in 1856..who married GRACE BRIDGES..etc etc ......

I am not yet entirely happy about Mary Ann Twigg.......we know she married James Gregson in 1839........not necessarily at Ashbourne..Ashbourne means the Ashbourne Civil registration District..which includes all the areas around Longford, Etwall.Sutton on the Hill and many more........I'm just surprised that I can't find the marriage......but apart from that I've sorted it.....

The MARY GREGSON married to James ..definitley the 1815 Longford one....is always shown as born around 1821 at Darley............which can only be the mary Ann Twigg baptised 14.04.1822 daughter of John and Ann...

I am now completley happy if you are..and if you are..I'll send you the complete history......

Derek..

Derek.