Find Ancestors

Hi Derek,

I found your thread and wondered if you had time if you could do a lookup for me.

In the 1841 census I have the BRAMLEY children - William 1816 / Thomas 1822 / Maria 1826 and George 1829 and I would love to try and find out who their parents are as they are living with William 1786 / Pheobe 1791 / Pheobe 1823 and Sarah 1825 FRETWILL

In the 1851 census of the FRETWELL family there is William, Pheobe, Pricilla (Pheobe i guess) - daughter and Sarah - daughter.

George BRAMLEY - 1829 - unmarried - son-in-law
Ann BRAMLEY - 1831 - unmarried - daughter-in-law

William and his daughters were born Shipley
Pheobe / George & Ann were born Cotmanhay

I have a gut feeling that maybe Pheobe 1791 was their mum but just haven't been able to prove it as I can't find their births.

Please could you take a look for me when you have time as it's been bugging me for ages now....

Thanks :-)

Hello Sharon..you've caught me watching telly!!..a quick look at Cromford Baptisms shows only;-

GEORGE TURNER 10.09.1843 son of Sarah..............and a marriage 10.08.1874 of George Turner of Matlock to Fanny Allen of Cromford.....

any good?
edit 22.33............curious......there is a baptism for George Turner 24.03.1799 sonn of Anthony and Sarah......who i suppose could be George's father..BUT big BUT....there is also a Sarah Turner (the only one at cromford) baptised Cromford 29.04.1800..daughter of Anthony and Sarah........mmmmmm..the mind begins to boggle!!!!!
There are no other Turners at Cromford..

Further edit............there is a photo of a George turner 1843 Cromford...in front of his easel..allegedly married to a Kate Smith

Funny thing is, he is not on 1841.1851 censuses...
Derek.

Derek
have you any info on Cromford 1842 births If you see my thread re george Turner 1842.

Gins thinks we have worked it out but if you have anything that could help.

Gins thanks for all what help you have done
Sharon

Hi Derek....

Have now found a few minutes to look at the Bucknall info.......Sorry its taken me so long, 1001 things to do before the holiday season is upon me.

Thanks for confirming that John 1802 was the child of George and Elizabeth Mather.

I think I will need to leave my Bucknall line at John 1802 for the time being unless I get some spare time...........ha ha.....don't think much chance of that at the
moment !!.
Kind of suspected that Theophilus was a different lot all together but thank you so much for looking for me.

If I am not back to bother you before...........have a wonderful festive season and New Year

Again thanks for your help.
Susan

:-)
:-)

Derek,

Thank you so much for your help, you are such a star!

Julie

Hello Julie........JOSEPH BALLINGTON married ANN SAXELBURY at Duffield 02.05.1836..and had at least nine children..He was buried Nottingham Road Derby 18.02.1901.
Joseph was baptised St Werbergh Derby 080.9.1816..son of William and Temperance.
Like you. I cannot find the marriage of his parents..even in the St Werbergh marriages where you might expect it to be....and at least the first two children were baptised there.....though with a name like Temperance she might have been a Wesleyan/Methodist..but not necessarily.

I'll let you know if i find anything.

Derek.

Hi Derek,

Come up against another brick wall with the Ballington family. I'm trying to find the marriage of Joseph Ballington b.1816, married someone called Ann. Joseph is the son of William & Temperance Ballington who's marriage I still can't find.
Hope you can help.

Julie

Hi Derek,

Thank you for this info. Yes George married Ann Wardle In 1845 I have a copy of their marriage Cert. and George gives his father's name as William Evans occupation looks like tailor.

I shall have to close now but will look tomorrow for any further info you may find.

Best Regards Keith.

Hello Keith.....Rosson.?????........If you look through all the scribbles on the 1871 original you will see the answer........Roston..which is actually the parish of Norbury with Roston..where GEORGE EVANS as baptised 02.03.1823 son of Ann Evans........she had no other children under that name..which means probably that George was illegitimate..no mention of father....it could be that she did later marry the father..name unknown..and george retained the Evans name.......more likely that he was just illegtimate......sorry....

The lady he married..Ann came from leicestershire..and as you know. the ended up in west Bromwich..

I'll have a look and see if i can fins anything about Ann Evans his mother.

Derek.

hello derek

i forgot to say i am useing my tree on ancestry now

love sally <3

Hi Derek,

I'm looking for info on a George Evans abt 1823 shown in the 1851 census born Derbyshire Rosson, in the 1861 census shown Derby and in the 1871 census born Derbyshire Norton. George Evans marriage gives his father's name as William Evans any info i.e. parents or siblings would be very helpful.


Regards Keith.

Hello sally.....no they're not sending me any bleedin' whiskey!!

xxx

hello old friend

i am able to see gr a bit better

i see your fans are keeping you busy and still sending you whisky

i am sending you a pm

love sally w <3 <3 <3

Dear Derek,

Thanks so much for your help. Wow. That fills in some gaps for me. I definitely agree with you and think that the George Holmes s/o Joseph is a better candidate. Would be excited if you were able to find Hannah's shop. Have saved your reply so I can look over it a bit later.

Alfred Holmes is my direct ancestor. His daughter Annie had my great grandfather illegitimately in Feb 1881 and her name is on the certificate (I was able to cross reference his place of birth with the census and found that it was her sister's address). She did quite a good job of hiding the illegitimacy because she never lived with her son. Anyway - bit of a long anecdote but goes to show what kind of family secrets are out there which aren't obvious in indexes.

I'll no doubt come back with some other questions. Cheers for the advice.

- Lucia

Hello Lucia........not easy, but i have managed to get some sort of answer for you.

Firstly, the marriage took place at Lenton Nottingham 06.11.1802..not in Derbyshire.

GEORGE HOLMES is a bit of a problem....."from Ashover" does not mean born Ashover..but there is, in the Ashover PR's a baptism for a George Holmes son of William 22.02.1779...........I'm not entirely happy with this becasue there are huge number of George Holmes in Derbyshire.......and i think I have a better candidate.............will come back to that....

Ellen Holmes was baptised Bulwell 13.04.1825 daughter of George and Hannah.
Haven't found a definite birth yet for ALFRED HOLMES, but am happy enough that he was born Basford/Bulwell in 1809........I actually live in Basford, so I know how close it is to Bulwell.

The 1841 Census has George (a stone mason) and Hannah,together with Ellen aged 16...........Alfred is long gone

The 1851 Census has Hannah (widow) a shop keeper in Bulwell with a "lodger"of thesamesort of age as her..James Burton

(Iam in the middle of an in depth study of 19th century Bulwell..and I may even be able to identify her shop...........nopromises.)

Alfred as I'm sure you know was in London by 1841......he married ANN HAWLEY daughter of William Hawley at Holborn Middx 22.05.1839
From 1851 onwards he can be found on the censuses in Kensington Middx with his wife and children..he was also a Stone mason..and later a Marble Mason........

Which brings me back to GEORGE HOLMES his father...........you get a feelin for this game, and often children are named for their parents and/or grandparents...........Alfred and Ann had loads of children including Alfred/Joseph/Ann/Elizabeth/Ellen........all born in London.....

I have a GEORGE HOLMES baptised Wirksworth Derbyshire 22.02.1779..son of JOSEPH (stone mason) and ANN.............not only is the date exactly right for the 1841 census (not always the case..but Notts censuses tend to be more accurate than most)..but Ashover and Wirksworth are close together..and ALFRED named his children possibly after his grandparents, himself and his sister......

something for you to chew over at least!! let me know what you think..

The "gap" that you mention ..being pre-census..is going to be difficult to fill in unless we find more children of George and Hannah

Derek.

Hi Derek,

Thanks for your kind offer. I have a direct ancestor called George Holmes who married Hannah Blazedale at Lenton, Derbyshire on 6 Nov 1802. The marriage record states that he was from Ashover, Derbyshire. But I've hit a bit of a wall trying to find more about him. He was a stone mason. I know that they had a couple of children - Alfred (born Basford, Notts 1809) and Ellen (born Bulwell, Notts 1825). I haven't found out what happened between the gaps. Hope you can help.

Thank you
Lucia

can now confirm that John Bucknall 1802 was the first child of GEORGE BUCKNALL and Elizabeth nee Mather married Beeston 25.10.1801

EDIT..have now found the burial of Theophilus Bucknall at Beeston 1850..aged 73..which proves a birth of 1777..which means it was other Theophilus that ended his life in Birmingham....Theophilus 11.01.1777..son of Theophilus and Sarah..died 1850 as above.

Theophilus 27.11.1749 Breaston( son of Theophilus and Hannah.).who married Elizabeth Wheatley in 1773 Breaston..is NOT the father of Theophilus 1777....

Theophilus 1781 Beeston married Martha Potter 1812......I don't think your John Bucknall 1802 is related directly to any of them!!

Derek.

Oh my word, talk about a mess !!!!
I think I will perhaps need a strong drink and a clear head.........do the two really go together?

Why does my family have to be so complicated, is this the "good old days" granny used to talk about?

Have seen the Bucknall tree you speak about but no indication as to where the information about the move from Breaston to Beeston came from.

According to census records John Bucknall (1802) father of my George 1839 was from Beeston but before that who knows.........

May need to look at this is another way........Give me a couple of days to digest your information and I will get back to you....

Many Thanks for your help..........sorry I always give you a "bad un". :-S
Think you deserve another double scotch......

Susan

Ok....in addition to the message below......God this double scotch is lovely!!...here are some Beeston Bucknall baptisms......you already have thos from John and frances Bucknall.all baptised on the same day 01.05.1842...........again..these are pure facts........for you to interpret as you will.....

George Bucknall and Millicent nee Love had the following children:

Zillah ..Henry and William..all three baptised 01.05.1842..wow the vicar was busy that day!!..perhaps May Day 1842 had some special significance....

Theophilus and Martha nee Potter had children Elizabeth 10.10.1813 and Henry 15.10.1815

Theophilus and Mary Ann had Edward 13.12.1818

George and Elizabeth had Elizabeth 26.03.1815 and Samuel 24.08.1817.. William 13.05.1821..and henry 16.05.1824

Thomas and Elizabeth nee Marshall married 06.03.1815..had the following children:-

William 16.05.1815
James 21.07.1816
Thomas 05.07.1818
Eliza 11.02.1821

William Bucknall and Jane nee Pegg..married 12.06.1831..had Elizabeth 11.09.1831

these are offered merely has building blocks........some may help

Derek.

Susan..this would not be as interesting and compelling as it is without its associated confusion. Do not be so sure that Theophilus has no confusion attached!!..Particularly as the various Trees around..particularly on Anceastry are about as reliable as the weather!........For instance Beeston is shown as being in Cheshire.......or in Nottingham Cheshire......an error and a complete lack of geographical nous that appears in more than one of those trees..clearly copied, thus perpetuating the mistake.......plus a suggestion that the Bucknalls ( this is a Bucknall family tree!!) moved from Breaston to Beeston.
This may be right....but I have my doubts...

I offer you the Breaston Bucknalls:-

Theophilus and Sarah had the following children:-

Elizabeth 26.04.1777 and Theophilus 11.01.1777

again at Breaston:-

Theophilus and Elizabeth nee Wheatley (married 1773)..both born Breaston 1749) had the following children:-

Mary 27.06.1779 and GEORGE 14.02.1781...........make of that what you will.

on to Beeston..........the following marriages took place at Beeston in addition to John and Frances..........

George Bucknall married Elizabeth Mather 25.10.1801
John Bucknall married Ann Hopewell 04.01.1808
Thomas Bucknall married Hannah Marshall 10.07.1809
Thomas Bucknall married Elizabeth Marshall 06.03.1815
(sinking feeling in my devious mind says these were the same Thomas Bucknell!!)

George Bucknall married Millicent Love ( at Beeston) 05.09.1832
John Bucknall married Ann Dyche 16.05.1813

you want some confusion??? lol........Theophilus allegedly 1781 and allegedly 1816..both appear on the 1841 census..........one of them is the Father of Theophilus E and Henry who moved away to Birmingham..one of them was married to Martha Potter and the other to Mary Ann Basset ......

I'll leave you to mull this over for a minute or two.........amongst all the possible mindblowinng must have a large Scotch and a rub down with a wet news of the World mania...........everything I have told you here is first generation original source FACT..........if it drives you completely nuts..join the club!!

Derek.