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Hello Lorraine......you have given me a nightmare!!.........Until, that is,I was able to work out a sort of Chronology that might go back to early 17th century.

The Hibberts/Hibberds/Hibbards..are easy..and I have researched them till I'm blue in the face...three different enquiries..different sources...same extended family!!..going back to Apperknowle, by the way........

There was a stronghold of TALLENTS/TALENTS/TALLANTS.....starting at Sutton cum Duckmanton....through Heath..and on to North Wingfield and other places......You may noy know that all three of these places are within spitting distance of each other.

That being the case I have found what may be a logical sequence, but I do not offer it as 100%...........it's a possibility..based on the fact that there is only one possible MARY TALLENTS of the right age..(that I can find..and believe me I've been in three Counties..not literally!)..and on the likelihood that MARY was 17 when she married George Hibberd. 09.07.1755

Which takes us to GODFREY and MARY TALLANTS of Sutton cum Duckmanton,.and two children baptised in Heath:-

MARY TALLENTS (spelling magnificently interchangeable!!) 05.06.1738
WILLIAM TALLANTS 10.01.1740..............it takes only a small leap of faith to believe that they then moved to North Wingfield.....and you asked about the possibility of Elizabeth being a sister of Mary????????..well..this quite brilliant (and probably totally erroneous) scenario says YES!.......becasue they had two daughters called ELIZABETH TALLENTS (they being Godfrey and Mary)..the first baptised NW 15.06.1744.and clearly died..and the second 08.01.1748......who mat well be the lady of the 1777 marriage..........

this is not completely though through..but i thought i'd better get back to you sooner rather than later......lolol
EDIT.....North Wingfield burial 01.11.1744 Elizabeth Tallants infant daughter of Godfrey and Mary

Derek xxx.

hi derek

its me

back to researching in derbyshire

right here goes

elizabeth hibbert baptised 1756 northwingfield parents george and mary

so found a marriage for george

george hibbert married mary tallents [tallants] 9 july 1755 north wingfield
so now i would like to find parents of mary tallents

have found a hephzibah tallents marrying a soloman siddon now just wondering if hephzibah could be marys sister

if you remember george and mary hibberts daughter elizabeth married john selby and they called one of there daughters hephzibah

well i will leave it with you and see if you can find me anything

thank you

lorraine [littlelegs]

o Derek as if I would desert you
:-| :-| :-| :-|

sally w <3 <3+ <3

Thank you Derek for your assistance, I know they're not uncommon names at that time but what are the chances of there being two families of White's with siblings Sarah, Frederick, Joe and Ernest in Barlborough!!! Wouldn't surprise me if they weren't connected in some way further down the line.

Neil..I am working on your reply from PM............please use this Thread..then others may well help yo as well as me........
I dispute entirely any paternal role for CHARLES WHITE..........and the answer actually is quite simple.if your FREDERICK WHITE 1878 is the one who married MARY FORREST in 1903 at Whitwell........his parents will be on the Marriage Certificate......at least his father's name will be..............I'm still working on it.

I can see where you have a problem........two Fredericks born within a year of each other.....with the two sets of parents..I have a death for Charles White 1909 ..is that the one who was found in a field????..his daughter Sarah did marry Walter Gregory so the story could be true............and Charles WAS the father of a FRED WHITE 1879............but confuse matters further..both Frederick Whites had their births registered at Worksop in the same year 1878..one JFM..the other OND.........

I think we can knock this around for ever........so your only real answer is.as i said..get the Marriage Certificate for 1903 and it will give his father.

EDIT..Have found out that the JANE that Charles White married was in fact ELIZABETH JANE RAWLINSON..whom he married in Worksop District 1868

Further EDIT............1911 has Fred White aged 32 living as boarder with his married brother Ernest....1911 has frederick White..married to Mary (forrest)..with children..........hmmmmmmmm......Marriage certificate need!!
Derek.

Hi Derek

You have really got your teeth into them.

Sorry it was the Spencer line I would like to get back a bit further. My Dad who sadly passed 3 years ago used to say that they were from London and they had been cab drivers. When I got back to 1795 with Richard I didn’t think the story would have carried for 150 years but if you go back another 100 and look at Ible then there is a Richard Spencer London Merchant married in 1696 so maybe there was some truth in it. There seamed to be Spencers and particularly Richards in Ible for 100 years. I just can’t make the link.

Also I had discounted Mary dau of Francis and Mary as there is a burial
B 1811jul07 TAYLOR Mary(dau)Francis/Mary(Cromford)[12]

and opted for the Mary c1795 of William and Ellen and the Ible connection .

It doesn’t sit right with me that they never named a child William , it went Joseph, Richard , Mary , Ann, George Michael 1827-1833, John , Sarah and Elizabeth.

John being my GGgrandfather marrying Sarah Fearn in 1861 John is a butcher and they are running The Gate pub in Brassington . Their 8th child is born in the summer 0f 1862 and in Nov the same year Johh has a tragic accident while racing his horse and cart on Cromford Crossroads. Sarah keeps The Gate for another 40 years.

I still have one Uncle left for my Dads generation and guess where he lives - Ible

He always enjoys hearing what I have discovered and it would be great to tell him he is living in the same hamlet as his ancestors.

Thanks

Jo

Ps not me Sarah Fearn

Ok Joanna........this is very much a work in progress..and may go nowhere!!
I have latched onto your Census returns for Richard Spencer and Mary.....

It seems that both Richard and Mary were born in the last five years of the 18th century............It seems that MARY TURNER was born at Wirksworth during that time..........notice I say "It seems"...........thus adding a possible caveat on my suggestion that..................there is only one possibility for the parents of Mary Taylor.............born Wirksworth 30.07.1798..baptised 14.09.1798..daughter of Francis and Mary...........

There is one other possibilty...09.12.1795 daughter of William and Ellen.......I suggest that is too early.....

For Richard Spencer.allegedly "of Middleton"....I have no idea at all.......we have to distinguish between..Middleton by Wirksworth......for which there is no possible entry..........Middleton by Youlgreave........which presumably would be the Youlgreave parish Records......again no sign..and Stony Middleton..which i have searched to no avail,,and probably reject on the ground of it being out of area..........

Those are the only problems i have........and since you don't actually make clear what specific information you seek...........I can add that I do have the Brassington Parish records..which continue the Spencer record, as your information suggests........but do not support a suggestion on Ancestry that Richard was buried there.....in fact...the only documentary evidence i can find for the existence of Richard Spencer..apart from the 18411 1851 and 1861 Censuses is his marriage to Mary Taylor.........

I'm digging!!.........incidentally why was Richard a Butcher..then a lead Miner, then a Butcher?????
EDIT..gone 11pm!!...........I got interest in this Miner/Butcher transition......and find that it is continued in Brassington...........

The two Spencer Butchers in Brassington were Joseph and John.and I have now traced them back to Richard...........so not only did Joseph go to Brassington..so did John.......

Joseph is easy.......he married ESTHER GREATORIX 18.05.1836....at Brassington...having been baptised at Wirksworth 02.04.1820..son of Richard and Mary....

Their children were (at Brassington)...Mary 23.10.1836....Joseph 20.09.1841..George 15.10.1843........

His brother JOHN SPENCER..baptised Wirksworth 28.12.1828...married SARAH FEARN at Brassington (his father Richard was a witness)....18.05.1848

Now then........father Richard was a labourer..a Butcher..a Miner and a Butcher.....

John was first a Miner..then a Butcher........at Brassington.....my brain is hurting!!!......John was a miner at least until 1851........two sons....John 24.06.1849 and Richard 02.02.1851..had John...A Miner and sarah..as parents................the rest of the children had John as a Butcher..and Sarah as follows.....

Francis 09.01.1853..Joseph 26.08.1855...Sarah 05.07.1857...Anne 15.05.1859...Emma 17.02.1861..and Emily 18.05.1862.

Further Edit 23.32............Hooray!!.........Joseph the Butcher at Brassington had moved with his family to Lancashire by 1861.........and by 1861 his brother John and his wife Sarah had taken over the Butcher's business......God 'm so brilliant i have to go have a lie down with a bottle of Scotch!!

Derek.

glad your alright derek

see your still busy doing look ups

keep up the good work

lorraine

Hello Lorraine little legs!!.....how nice to hear from you....I'm absolutely spiffingly fine! xxxxx

hi derek

[dont need a look up ]

to ask if your ok

lorraine

Hello Neil...........you're nearly right!!........ALICE not ANNE.

The information you give,if correct....Frederick White 1878 Barlborough with siblings Joseph and Sarah..is unique..and therefore proves the parents you're looking for to be:

FREDERICK WHITE 1835 Killamarsh Derbys..and ALICE KNOWLES 1835 Ashton under Lyne Lancashire..who married in Prescot Registration District Lancs AMJ 1859

Their first child Sarah was born there 1863..the next John Thomas 1865 at Eckington Derbyshire.then six more..including the two youngest Frederick and JOSEPH all at Barlborough.

If you get back to me I have full details.(Incidentally Census returns of 1881 and 1891 are for Worksop District Notts, which includes Barlborough in Derbyshire..Don't ask!!!

Derek.

Hello Susan..rest assured that I will not give up too easily...

That is very good advice Derek as I have just seen how much it costs! Woah! :-0
Your position as my man on the street is secure! :-D

Hi Derek...........
Sorry for givin you a badun'..........you did say you needed some work to do !!!!

Sorry cant help you at all with any further info regarding William GREATOREX / GREATREX / GREATRIX........or which ever way they decided to spell it..

Only concrete info I have is from your records regarding his daughter Sarah GREATOREX who was born Shirley 1825 and went on to marry GEORGE FEARN

There seem to be loads of GREATOREX family in Carsington and Winster but I cant find a connection to my lot. Also seem to be in Cubley, Brassington and Duffield. Certainly got about a bit ............

Any help you can offer will be really appreciated as I have hit a brickwall with this one !

Susan :-S

Hi Derek,

Can you help me? My Gt Grandfather was a Fred(erick) White of Barlborough, Derbys, born I think 1878. I have however two contrasting lineages which could be him. Firstly his parents could be a Fred White and Anne Knowles or alternatively, a Charles and Jane White. He had a brother Joseph and sister Sally (Sarah).

He married Mary Forrest of Whitwell Common in, I think 1903 and later died in 1930. Any help you can offer would be appreciated. Also anything else you come across would be brilliant too!!! :-D

Hi Derek
I am stuck on my paternal line and wondered if you could have a look and see if you can find anything. This is the marriage and early census returns. Thanks

Jo

M 1816mar25 SPENCER Richard(Middleton)/TAYLOR Mary
Witnesses: W. WILKINSON,John BLOUNT

This is them in 1841

---Town Street---[Middleton]----------
Md092a Richard SPENCER 45 m Y Butcher
Md092b Mary SPENCER 45 f Y
Md092c Richard SPENCER 20 m Y Butcher
Md092d Mary SPENCER 15 f Y
Md092e Ann SPENCER 15 f Y
Md092f John SPENCER 13 m Y
Md092g Sarah SPENCER 9 f Y
Md092h Elizabeth SPENCER 6 f Y

They had an older son who had already married (Esther Greatorix)and moved to Brassington
------[Brassington]----------
Br103a Joseph SPENCER 20 m Y Butcher
Br103b Esther SPENCER 20 f Y
Br103c Mary SPENCER 4 f Y
Br103d Hannah SPENCER 2 f Y

More of the family eventually moved to Brassington and stayed there.

This is them in 1851

#016---Town Street---[Middleton]---(p5, Brassington district, Enumeration district 9b, HO 107/2146)
Md123a Richard SPENCER Head M 57 M Lead miner Middleton
Md123b Mary SPENCER Wife M 56 F Wirksworth
Md123c Sarah SPENCER Dau U 19 F Cotton factory Middleton Empl at
Md123d Elizabeth SPENCER Dau U 16 F Cotton factory Middleton Empl at
Md123e William SPENCER Gson 8 M Middleton

Anne..and maybe you shouldn't...lol!..save your money and just ask me.......I'm the man on this street!!!

Derek.

Thanks Derek,
Your hard work on my behalf is much appreciated as usual. Its interesting to hear that there are a lot of mentions on Ancestry of my 3x great-granny - maybe I should subscribe to that website too. I will look into it :-D
TTYS,
Anne :-)

Thanks Derek, I have the marriage bond for Gilbert Junior and Mary Meakin so yes that one is correct. As for Gilbert senior he remains a complete mystery :-S. I have not a jot of an idea of who his parents were or if he had any siblings I know you have come up with the same brick wall too. I could find no trace of Elizabeth either even though looking on a few sites.

Ah well back to the drawing board :-|

Hi Chrissie and Sally..thank you for your continued support and loyalty!!

Derek xxx