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Hi Derek…………

What can I say…..thank you so much for confirming that Thomas, Sutton on the Hill is mine.
I agree with your comments about the baptisms, I have quite often found several children of varying ages baptised together. Perhaps it was a cost factor as well, especially when money was tight as it surely must have been most of the time. Can hardly wait for your findings………what a wonderful name “Marmaduke” was.

With regard to my other Neal line……………I really appreciate the time you are taking to look for the Longford "Neals".

Give me a couple of days to double check the information I have and to confirm what I know as “fact” and I will send you the details. I don’t want to send you off on a wild goose chase. Some Neals have been confirmed others are “heresay” from other trees and may not be accurate, hence I need your expert help…..

Will be in touch again very soon…………….
Meanwhile, time for another glass of your favourite….

Susan
:-D

Hello Chrissie..certainly an odd one.............i have a history for Elijah Burrows and all his children by Sarah..right through to 1871.

He definitley married Sarah Purday 30.05.1830..and as you say Moses baptised 21.09.1834 is the son of Elijah and Sarah (Lacy)....and there are six other children of that marriage, before and after Moses.......

BUT... There is an Elijah Burrows 1826..son of Elijah and Sarah..i.e. before the marriage to Sarah Purday..and strangely in 1881, a few years before he died...Elijah senior..a widower...is living with that very same Elija 1826..his son......NOT Elijah 1834..so what do we make of it..???

1. Sarah Purday was previously married and her maiden name was Lacy....just does nt hang together.

2.Elijah and sarah Purday were being very naughty prior to 1830..and Elijah 1826 is their son legitimised by the marriage..

3. Which means that Elijah 21.09.1834 can't be their son..i.e. a replacemnet for an earlier and deceased Elijah..because Elijah 1826 was still living with his dad in 1881.....

4. Which means that Sarah Lacy and her son Elijah 1834..is just a massive co-incidence..

I have to check the earlier Census returms for this to be right......but its a possibilility.

Derek.

Hi Derek.

I'm back for more info please on the Burrows family.

I am trying to confirm the marriage of Elijah Burrows c1811 Ilkeston? and Sarah ? c1811 Heanor?.

On familysearch there are several of their childrens baptism details. Mother is named as Sarah on several but on Moses's baptism (21/9/1834) she is named as Sarah Lacy. Directly below this record are two marriage records for Elijah Burrows and Sarah Purday dated 30th May 1830. I am a little confused by the Lacy/Purday names and wonder if you can confirm whether the marriage is for my family.

Regards

Chrissie x

Hi Susan.I am now happy that Thomas Neal baptised Sutton on the Hill, is in fact your Thomas.......as we know h seems to have spent all his life in Longford, and not being baptised there is not necessarily an issue. The priest was often unavailable..and came to a Parish sometimes only half a dozen times a year to baptise children "en bloc"....You see how often one family have three,or four, or more children baptised on the same day..sometimes years after Birth.
If you didn't want to wait, you went to the next parish.......and I am happy that is what happened with Thomas....

Now then....you say you had another line of Neals in Longford..so a a spot of pleasant diversion with a glass of my favourite......I am plotting all the Neals of longford to see what patterns there were......first results take a continuous line back to JOHN NEAL baptised 1621.............and by the way..I mentioned LUKE NEAL....no such person..is a mistranscrition and should read Marmaduke..........i.e. Marmaduke and Hannah..grandparents of Thomas... I'll get back to you with details,,,,,,,

William middleton needs further work........

Derek.

Hi Derek………Apologies for not getting back to you yesterday, million and one things to do and always when I want to be at the PC !!

Thanks for the info about THOMAS NEAL and Grace…… I would ever doubt your information, I know it is too accurate but its given me something to think about………..sometimes I wonder why I started this family tree lark especially when I have a bad day

I have seen the trees on ancestry stating THOMAS was born at Longford, he was definitely there in 1841 with Grace and his offspring…..still there in 1851 and in 1861 living with his son-in-law John Bridges and his daughter Elizabeth at Rodsley. Grace passed away sometime between 1851 and 1861.

I have taken his birth place from the census of 1841, 1851 and 1861. I guess he could have assumed he was born at Longford as he remembered living there…….I don’t think I am confusing him with another Thomas Neal.

Are there any details of any siblings for him or parent names on his marriage record to GRACE in 1800 ?

You deserve a large scotch now. As always your help is really appreciated.

Susan

PS: Did you ever manage to confirm WILLIAM MIDDLETON

Hi Susan............all the "evidence" i.e Ancestry Trees...show Thomas Neal being born at Longford.......they all agree, most of them copied willy nilly from each other.....and all WRONG!!
Whatever else Thomas was certainly not Baptised at Longford............he certainly died there, and was buried 13.03.1865 aged 81.

Being extremely clever....some would say TOO clever, and based on the fact that there are a lot of local parishes.....Etwall. Sutton on the Hill..Thurvaston.Hilton and Hatton within a few miles of each........to name but a few.....I suggest the following:-

THOMAS NEAL baptised Sutton on the Hill 19.05.1783..son of Joseph and Martha...........I say this because Thomas certainly lived in longford with Grace..having married her at another very local village in 1800..and he died there..........BUT so did Joseph 30.05.1797 aged 58 and MARTHA ....12.04.1818 aged 72

Joseph Neal was baptised Longford 27.05.1739 son of Marmaduke and Hannah...and married MARTHA HELLABY at Longford 24.05.1768.

I offer this to you as not quite water tight, but certainly very probable.

Derek.

Hi Derek........
Many thanks for the info about GRACE MIDDLETON AND THOMAS NEAL, its brilliant...You have come up trumps again.

Sorry I didn't make it very clear what I was looking for with the NEAL(E) family. Having a senior one...........

I wonder..........please pretty please, could you find the names of THOMAS NEAL(e) parents for me any any siblings.

Have another line of NEALS in my tree and curious to see if any connection between the two families. I will sort out the details as I think they both originated from Longford and would be soooooooo grateful if you could check for me.

Thanks again for all your continued help
Susan
:-D

Derek, Apologies. Typed the wrong century, of course. Argh....Old man Henry, 1693 is the one. So he was an old man just ten years after his marriage. Wonder when he was baptised and where. Perhaps a lost record or maybe just waiting to be found. Thank you for your work, Derek.

Hello Susan......always a pleasure to see you!

The name NEAL and NEALE are interchangeable..indeed the children of Thomas and Grace have both spellings.......

THOMAS NEAL married GRACE MIDDLETON at Marston on Dove 03.10.1800 and had the following children:-
Joseph 04.05.1808
Thomas 14.07.1811
William 12.06.1814
Grace 21.06.1818
ELIZABETH 01.04.1821............all baptism dates.

GRACE MIDDLETON was baptised 12.09.1779 at marston on Dove
Mary Middleton baptised 15.11.1772............both daughters of William Middleton and Elizabeth (maybe Radford).......I have plenty of information on the Neal(e)s..but am trying to chase up William Middleton.............best bet at the moment is born St Michael's derby 19.03.1758 son of Thomas and Hannah..but don't bank on it till I confirm it.....
What do you want of the Neales?????

Derek.

Helen..your dates confuse me......you say 1794 and 1783.....do you mean 1684??

There is no Henry and Elizabeth Gregson at longford for your dates..however:-

Henry Gregson baptised Longford 01.10.1684..son of Henry and Elizabeth....

The only other \henry Gregson baptised longford is 24.06.1711 son of Charles and Ann

There is a marriage for Henry Gregson to Mary North 18.04.1734

Burials for Elizabeth Gregson are as follows;-

Elizabeth wife of charles buried 18.04.1736
Elizabeth infant buried 26.11.1800
Elizabeth..no other info..buried 19.08.1808
Elizabeth 16 months buried 11.11.1825
Elizabeth aged 16 buried 27.08.1878

The only Henry burial is that of "an old man" 01.01.1693...

I can find no marriage anywhere in Derbyshire for a henry grgeson to an Elizabeth in the 18th century.......

Derek.

Can I have a clue about burials? If Henry Gregson lived in Longford, recorded a baptism in Longford in 1783, died in Longford and had Letters of Administration in 1794 confirming he lived in Longford and that his wife, Elizabeth, also lived in the Bupton area of Longford in 1794 where on earth are they buried?
I've had this before with others. They certainly existed, their deaths and residence being confirmed by Wills or Admons but no sign of their burial. Am I missing something?

Hi Derek........Its me again, back to bother you. Hope you are still keeping well.

Was just looking at the thread about the Gregsons and that they were a "little wild" ...... Oh my ......... I've got Gregsons at Longford...........Although I have done some work on my Gregsons, with your wonderful help of course, I will perhaps take another look, never know what I might find.......Wonder if they are connected. Might be interesting......

Anyway the reason for me bothering you again.......

I have an ELIZABETH NEAL or Neale born about 1821 who was married to JOHN BRIDGES at Longford in Sept 1848.
Could you confirm ELIZABETH’S parents as THOMAS Neal born abt 1779 in Longford and GRACE MIDDLETON born abt 1778 in Derbyshire....somewhere.

They may have been wed at Marston on Dove in 1800.

Any additional information regarding THOMAS and GRACE’S family that you could find would also be wonderful, especially on the NEAL line.

Don’t have any problems with the Bridges side of the family as quite well documented.

Many Thanks
Susan
:-D

Oh yes.. they were right there on the bottom line which does at least mean that there is some real information to be found about their lives - the geese, the nankeen and the breaking and entering up ladders.
I think the final roll in Tasmania was more than one.
Our line is through the Tailor who fell off the donkey he had just bought as he made his way home. He made it to the Coroners Inquest in Derby.
The wry comment at the Inquest was that the donkey was well known to be good with children. In order to make the papers you need to rich, poor or unlucky. I think the Gregsons can only claim the latter two.
Thank you so much for the information. Are you able to store all these Derbyshire families in your head? You must have a virtual picture of life in Derbyshire through the Centuries. Do you ever feel a book coming on?

Hi Helen......whether you know it or not..or WANT to know it or not..there are plenty of records to show that the Gregsons of Longford became known as the village paupers.......and high on petty criminal behaviour..one of whom emded up being transported to Tasmania!!

Derek

Thank you Derek, Being inexperienced many years ago at the time of my Matlock trip I neglected to take down the burials. A great mistake as it must surely be one of the first rules of family history research!
I have the Letters of Administration (Admon) of Henry of Bupton who died in 1694 which refer to his wife, Elizabeth which would be consistent with the Henry and Elizabeth who had a son, Henry, baptised 01.10.1684 that you have shown above. Henry Gregson "of Longford" married Elizabeth Cantril in Dalbury Lees the year before.
A Charles Gregson took over the Lease of the land in Bupton the year after Henry's death. As a Henry Gregson buried a wife, Amy in 1679 it is possible that Charles was either a son of the first marriage or perhaps a brother or at least some relative of some sort. Gregsons with a similar range of first names seem to be living around Thurvaston earlier in the Century and, with such close proximity and a relatively uncommon name in the area it seems likely that there was some sort of family connection. I noticed in the Archives online that the John Gregson of Thurvaston who inherited in 1607 from his father was already in debt by 1609.There doesn't seem to be much evidence of him in later records, though of course I could be wrong as I don't have the Sutton on the Hill transcripts. If I had to speculate yet again, I might consider that the John, son of John baptised in Longford in 1611 might be a child of his unless of course, you know differently. Needless to say, any additional information would be most gratefully received.

Hello Helen.I actually have the St Chad Longford Pr's in my sweaty little hand.....and have already researched this family for a guy called Richard gregson, who is in either Canada or New Zealand.

You have to bear in mind that we are somewhat fortunate to get back into the 17th century with a lot of Parish records, becasue many of the early ones wer destroyed or are illegible.

I personally give up trying to star at very old latinized splodes..but the dedicated people who transcribe these records may have skills thaht \i don't..and the various CD's are records of what they have managed to decipher..and it would be a miracle if there were not at least afew mistakes and even a few guesses.
In this respect..i'e very early records..stay away from family Search submitted records..whicharte often complete garbage.....

Here are a few of the earliest entries that are legible in the Longford Parish records...the information given is all there is:-

Baptisms:- Gregsons of course.

Anne daughter of William 28.10.1592
Henry son of henry and Elizabeth 01.10.1684
John son of john 15.09.1611
John son of CHARLES and ANNE 19.02.1698
Mary and Sarah..baptised the same day 28.10.1693..doesn't mean they were twins...Sarah buried 27.11.1693 infant daughters of CHARLES an ANNE

Mary daughter of William baptised 17.04.1655..looks like another infant death becasue she is replaced by another Mary baptised 15.02.1656

There are 23 Gregson marriages of which the first is in 1729....

Burials:-

Amy wife of Henry buried 20.09.1679
Edward..no other details buried 01.12.1653
Goode (sic) wife of William buried 17.07.1663
John son of William 30.08.1673
William no other details buried 02.04.1683
John son of Charles 20.02.1698.....

These are the earliest respective mentions of Gregsons at Longford...there are of course others in Parishes local to Longford........almost certainly related....

This is just an introduction to my work.will be only too pleased to help you further.

Derek.

Hello Derek,
I hope I am posting appropriately for your help. I feel that the Gregsons of Longford must be somewhat of a heartsink family with a 1693 brick wall when Charles and Ann baptise two daughters, Mary and Sarah, on the same October 25th day in Longford. I cannot find anything earlier regarding this Charles or anything to link this Charles with the other two contemporary Gregson males in Longford- Henry who had married Elisabeth Cantril or Cantrell in 1683 and who baptised a son, Henry at Longford in 1684, and George, who buried his son William in 1700. There are earlier Gregsons both in Longford and in Thurvaston whose Parish was Sutton on the Hill but no clear linkage between the families despite their close proximity. I have read in this thread, much earlier, that there exists a CD of Parish Baptisms and Burials in Longford but I've failed to find it. There's Volume 14 of Phillimore which contains Longford Marriages but I cannot find anywhere that appears to sell or has even transcribed the Baptisms and Burials. I would be happy to purchase these if they are available anywhere. Many years ago I travelled to Matlock and I still have my handwritten notes (in pencil, of course). I was inexperienced and I'm not convinced that I have taken them all down but the notes that I have taken down indicate a fundamental problem.
My interest is in the Charles Gregson who was baptised to Charles and Ann, above, in 1696. In the later records, if Charles Gregson Jnr married Ann Johnson widow in 1736 and Charles Gregson married Jane Booth in 1731 and Jane, wife of Charles Gregson Jnr of Bupton was buried in 1737 the Charles Gregson Jnr who married Ann Johnson in 1736 cannot have been the same Charles Gregson Jnr as his wife was still alive in 1736!!
So there were definitely two Charles Gregsons alive at the same time.
If they were both Charles Gregson Jnr this must mean that there were two Charles Gregson Snr..

Thomas Gregson of Thurvaston, extremely close to Bupton, left a Will in 1583. As well as his wife, Elisabeth he mentions sons John, Gregory, William, Thomas, and Charles. All the Gregson Wills contain penalties for marrying partners "not of the choice of surviving parent or siblings".
Charles was left an extremely small amount of money compared to his brothers in the Will. There seems to be a general assumption that that he did not marry and had no children. However, there are strong later Charles Gregson links in Longford. Could this assumption that Charles had no descendants be incorrect and why was he left such a small amount compared to his siblings? Did he marry out of family choice?
Questions but no answers. I would be happy, at this point, simply to have access to the CD, if it exists of the Longford Baptisms and Burials.

Hi Derek,
Yep I have an Ann Chaulner born 1670 in Church Gresley Derbyshire :-)
She died 3rd June 1732 in Netherseal, Derbys.
She married Simon Patrick on 26th August 1712 in Church Gresley..
They had 3 children (I think!)
Samuel 1714
Thomas 1715
John 1717
Apart from that I know nothing about her or the Chaulner family so any info would be gratefully received.
I know a bit about Simon - his parents were Thomas Patrick and Elizabeth George. Thomas' father was another Simon Patrick and his parents were Richard Patrick and Isabella Henton.
R&I were married in Repton Church on 15th November 1593. But it looks to me as though they were only 13 years old when they married and there was something about a special licence which I didn't understand? If you get chance could you check them out for me too (you did say that you were bored! :-D).
I found 3 other Hentons in Repton: Elizabeth who married Thomas Hardie (12 July 1570); Helen who married Willm Dalbie (19 May 1572) and Eustace who married Alice Dawson (22 Nov 1581), but haven't yet linked them to my Isabella.
Many thanks,
Anne :-)

Hi Anne..just had a spin thrugh some of the names you list on your research topics....picking the most unlikely....CHAULNER........Church Greasley....ish..and very close Leicestershire.......anything you need tp know? have unearthed one or two things...............funny what you get up to when you're bored!!

Derek

Well Derek you have done brilliantly to narrow it down to 3 potential Marthas - I couldn't find a single one!
Maybe they didn't get married and that is why we can't find any record of it.
Thank you so much for continuing to delve! :-)