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Sorry Derek,

1929 ?? Whoops.......think I left my brain somewhere today. Good job one of us is eagle eyed.

Knew I could count on you to work things out.....although I don't live a million miles from Derbyshire didn't even consider that they could have wed over the border. Gets me everytime, you'd have thought I would have learnt by now. Now whats that saying about teaching an old dog new tricks !!

Anyhow.......anything you can find out would be stupendous

Susan

:-D ;-)

1829....... :-P.......and see.I give you a good tip,, and you find a marriage!!....I'll see how far I can pursue this one........

The baptisms of the children of Thomas and Elizabeth are:_

Hannah 02.04.1809......
William 13.05. 1811
Samuel 11.02.1813.

Derek.

Hi Derek..........

Did contact you sometime last year regarding the Jackson side of this couple,I wasn't too concerned about the Townshends at the time but I am now looking for HANNAHS background and have reached a dead end.

You were able to confirm that George Jackson married HANNAH TOWNSHEND AT ST ALKMUNDS IN 1929.

They are my folks, I have their daughter Georgiana's birth cert for 1840 which confirms parents as GEORGE JACKSON & HANNAH TOWNSHEND.
George is a shoe maker and they are living in Hope Street Derby.

The only info I have is that kindly given to me by you..............HANNAH maybe daughter of THOMAS & ELIZABETH.......was baptised 1809 St Almunds..........I have also been unable to find her siblings William and Samuel.............
Bit of mystery all round this family !!
Any help will be much appreciated.

Susan

:-S

EDIT: Didn't consider Nottingham for a marriage, Have just found one at St Leonards, Wollaton, June 1791.............Thomas Townsend to Elisabeth Butler..
Do you think this could be our mystery couple ? :-D :-D

Hello Susan.........I have found at least three children of Thomas Townshend and Elizabeth at st St Alkmunds..Hannah William and Samuel......(under the name of Townsend)...but no marriage as yet.....Phillimore does not appear to have a Deby marriage..and I suspect I might need to look in Notts.
None of them appear on the 1841 census..which is odd......Samuel and William should be there.....
There is a marriage at St Alkmunds 19.09.1829 for a Hannah Townshend or Townshand to a George Jackson.....

Derek

Hi Derek
Suspect you could be looking for something to exercise your little grey cells so here goes !

Am looking for the name of THOMAS TOWNSHEND'S wife. I know it was ELIZABETH but I don't have a surname or any idea where or when they were married.
Their first child Hannah was born about 1809 and baptised at St Alkmund.

Many thanks
Susan


:-) :-) :-)

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sally w <3

There's a rumour going round that Derbyshire has ceased to exist.................. :-0

Ooooo Derek I think you might be in for an Ear bashing :-D :-D :-D :-D :-D

that's not nice :-D

sally w <3

That's where I bought her!!

come on shake those moths out and take her :-D

have a nice day

sally w <3

Hi Martin..will certainly have a look next time I go.....(my wife is giving me earache to go because she likes the Antique Shop, so maybe quite soon!!)

Derek

Hi Derek
I don't wish to bother you but do you remember our discussion of a few months ago:
"Hi Martin........It was St Christopher's Railway Servants' Orphanage......opened August 5th 1874.......it took children between the ages of SIX and TWELVE.and they had to leave at age fifteen...so..Ethel May would not have been 6 till 1897..........it's not much of an answer but if you Google "St Christopher's Railway Servant's Orphanage" you will be pleasantly surprised at the information given....including a series of photographs of children in 1909..when Ethel was certainly there.

Actual Roll cards and admissions 1874-1927 are available at Derbyshire Records Office in Matlock..............and i visit it quite often, so perhaps I'll find an exact answer quite soon.... "

I wondered whether you may be visiting the Records Office and could find out any info on my Great-aunt Ethel May Pomeroy b 1891 who was at the Orphanage from about 1897 to 1903.

Best Wishes
Martin

Thanks Derek,

Too many Joseph's for my liking....and in fact too many Thomas' too. I have been trying to link the Census entry for Thomas 1796 to the farm via references to trade directories which have the names of local farmers. The 1851 census entry suggests that the enumerator may have confused himself firstly by thinking that he was in Lower/Upper Elkstone, then replacing the entry with Warslow.
Then he lists Thomas and Esther as living in Town End, which I presume to be Town End Farm in Warslow.

Only trouble is that there are no Needhams listed in Warslow in the contemporary trade directories whatsoever (which is odd if you think that Joseph should be listed there). However, I did find reference to a Thomas Needham in Elkstone in Town Head and another in Paddock House, Alvestone.

Do you know if a farmer, even a tenant farmer, would have the franchise at that time? Certainly post Reform Act (1834???). Trying to think if there was a way to cross-reference them at all.

T

Tom........further to all the stuff below..'pity its coming to you in reverse order.

But it's really pleasing when a bit of detective work coupled with sheer common sense solves a difficult problem
We have THREE sons of Joseph and Martha..two fo which give birth to a Joseph one in 1824 and one in 1825..either of which could be our Milk man in Salford.....there is very little to divide them..except.!!!!!........

I now know that we had the right guy in the first place!!

Look at the 1841 Census for Ashford.........Joseph 1824/5 has a one year old brother Robert.........

1851 Joseph is in Salford with his wife Elizabeth..but no Robert...

1851 Robert aged 11 is still with his parents Thomas and Hester...

1861. Joseph 1824/5 is in Salford with his new wife Hannah, two children AND a Boarder ,who just happens to be his brother ROBERT..acting as a servant to him.

Joseph22.05.1825 son of William and Mary..did NOT have a brother Robert !!!!!

Quod erat demonstrandum!!!

Tom..........there is a problem..........your original enquiry asked me to investigate a Joseph Needham with parents Thomas and Esther............which i have done.

Have we been wasting our time????? Taking on board your doubts about my findings...which are accurate from the basepoint at which we started...I decided to look further ............and there is another JOSEPH NEEDHAM baptised Monyash 22.05.1825..which would account for the Stanton or Standen Census entries.......son of WILLIAM and MARY nee Hargreaves or Davies..............which I will now chase up......

EDIT..it turns out that this William Needham is in fact another brother of Joseph 1788.and Thomas 1796.......all three being children of Joseph and Martha....
Derek.
So the Joseph Needham 1825 is not the son of Thomas Needham, but the nephew......I think!!!..although at the moment Joseph 1824 son of Thomas, still exists.............

Hi Tom..I may have misled you, or misled myself.....Joseph 1788..seems to have taken over from his father.....then his brother Thomas 1796 took over from him..whilst his son (Thomas' son ) Joseph 1824.. was the one who moved to Salford and was the Provisions dealer in 1851..married to Elizabeth who is 14 years older than him. Now whether he married Elizabeth (allegedly from Monyash) before he left Derbyshire. or after is still inknown.......but since she was clearly from Derbyshire (also suggested in one Census as from High Needham) they were probably married in Derbyshire..and just as likely she had been married before...............
..If you look at the 1851 for Thomas Needham
..you will see that next door were living a family of GILMAN..............probably clutching at straws but a JOSEPH NEEDHAM married ELIZABETH GILMAN at about the right time...... and lthough the 1861 says Worlsow and Elkstones..he is still Farmer of 60 acres..surely the same 60 acres????
Meanwhile Joseph 1824 is merrily starting his Milk business in Salford.

the weak point in your logic of which Joseph went to Salford is the fact that the 1851 Census clealry shows his age as 26..i.e. born 1825 and married to a woman of 40....your Milk dealer obviously began that career asc a Provisions Dealer.....how old is he in 1861??????????..right the way through to 1891 he is shown as having been born in 1825,...........

..and just to be totally clear..two Gravestones in St. Muchael's East Sterndale:-
To the Sacred memory..JOSEPH NEEDHAM who departed this life 9th December 1840 aged 82..Also MARTHA..died 1811.....MARTHA his daughter 10.09.1826 aged 16 and ISAAC his son 25.04.1827 aged 25........


Separate grave....Im Memory of WILLIAM and ESTHER son and daughter of JOSEPH and MARTHA NEEDHAM of Hurdlow.
William departed this life October 5th 1791 aged 4 and Esther October 16th 1791 aged 1791..............

I still think Martha the wife died soon after the birth of Martha the daughter.....

So poor old Joseph had to bury not only his wife but four children..histwo other children Joseph 1788 and Thomas 1796 lived on to adulthood.

I think this is all entirely accurate.

Derek.

Hi Derek,

Tom again. I have been mulling over some of the information which you have been so good to provide and I am a little confused as there seems to be some contradictory evidence here:

In your note of 5 Oct 2014 at 22:36, you said that my ancestor (Thomas Needham) had an elder brother Joseph (b.1788).

Both were the children of Joseph and Martha Needham (of Hartington).

We know that in 1841, Thomas was living in Ashford in the Water and working as a Farm Labourer with a family of six.

We also know that by 1851, he is a farmer of sixty acres at Town End Farm in Warslow.

During the intervening time, Joseph (his son) has moved to Salford and is a General Provisions storekeeper and Martha (listed as living in Elkstone, which is the next village from Warslow) dies in 1845.

In that thread you said that you believed that Joseph Senior may have held the farm at Warslow and that first Joseph Junior (ie brother to Thomas), then Thomas may have took it over successively.

This is where I am a little confused in your response on 6 Oct 2014 at 15:25, you mentioned that Joseph (Junior??) Martha were living in Salford when they died and they alongwith their daughter Martha and son Issac, and are buried together. But there only appears to be one date (25.04.1827). Does this imply that all died together, or just one of them?

If you think about it, this cannot be the same family all dying on the same date for the following reasons:

- In 1827 Joseph would be about 39 years old, daughter Martha at age 16 could plausibly be his daughter, but Issac is listed as 25, meaning that Joseph would have been around 14-15 were he the father.

- Also, the Issac listed on the headstone is age 25..... this ties into the son of Joseph Needham and Martha Wardle, who was born in 1802 (but previously reported as dying in 1806).

- Thirdly, if Joseph junior, died in 1827, then his brother would not have taken on the farm from him after 1841, as he would not have been alive.

If we reflect upon it, then I think that we have the following situation:

Joseph Needham marries Martha Wardle.

They have children which included Joseph and Thomas.

Joseph (age around 32) goes to Salford around the 1820's.

- He dies there in 1827. Along with his wife, daughter and brother Issac.

Thomas continues to work the land and is found in Ashford in 1841.

- Joseph Senior dies in 1842.

- Thomas takes over the farm from his father. We know this because in 1845, his daughter (Martha) dies at the age of 10 and is buried in Earl Starndale in 1845 and listed as living in Elkstone.

So the first person to bring milk into Manchester may not have been Joseph (son of Thomas Needham) but his uncle Joseph instead. And Thomas took over the farm from his father, Joseph.

Is this a more logical narrative?

- Would the farm have been tenanted from the Chatsworth estate?

This leads me to ask about the 1861 Census. You suggested that Thomas and Esther may have moved once more (to Hartington); would there have been a documented explanation for this somewhere?

Tom

Hi Derek,

Thank you for your information to date. I am grateful for all of your help.

Tom

there's been a few of those!! goes with the job,,but thanks for caring...