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Colin

Im not sure what you want further from this record as this is all the info it gives and the additional info is the occupation of joiner

It says on the record that 'Walden' embarked at Fremantle and disembarked at Plymouth. Looks like it docked in Tilbury, Essex (London) Maybe someone else could have a look, I could be reading it wrong

Anyhow the info is copied and pasted from the transcription coming up on Ancestry as detailed below. It doesnt give the date it left Brisbane. I have checked the record and the date is correct

What other record are you comparing it to?


UK Incoming Passenger Lists, 1878-1960
about Mr Walden
Name: Mr Walden
Port of Departure: Brisbane, Australia
Arrival Date: 2 Apr 1910
Port of Arrival: London, England
Ports of Voyage: Brisbane, Sydney, Hobart, Melbourne, Adelaide, Fremantle, Colombo, Port Said, Naples, Marseilles and Gibraltar
Ship Name: Osterley
Search Ship Database: View the 'Osterley' in the 'Passenger Ships and Images' database
Shipping Line: Orient Steam Navigation Company Ltd
Official Number: 128287

Ginny
x

PS; And the deaths posted for Walter Sr and Walter Jnr? As above

Hi Ginny, Its nice to have you back close to the end of this thread. I suggested that keeping your information onfile might be helpful and sure enough it has now become very important. I will add a time line of Walters assumed movements very soon which will help crystallise where we have got to in this the final stage but I am a little confused about the arrival date for the Osterly in london.I think you mentioned April. On other papers I have that as the departure date ex Brisbane. Could you confirm the dates for me. In relation to the electoral rolls all references relate to Victoria and they are not relevant to us. He was shown in the 1916 roll in the Perth electorate which meant enrolment any time from 1913 on.The importance of the Osterley is that a walter walden joined the ship in fremantle and there were not too many waldens in western australia where all of this action is centered, on its trip to Tilbury. That Walter got off at Plymouth. The date of return is important. Your explanation of the term "joiner" is a pain in the posterior to me as everything else about him fits. It would have been icing on the cake However I have one consolation and that is he has not been entirely truthful about similar matters in the past. Lindsey summed him up well by saying he was like Walter Mitty. As to the qualities of the researchers helping me I agree totally with your comments.
By the way no one wants to see that marriage cert. more than me -it has to arrive soon....colin

Dont know if this is significant but it adds to Tracey's ER post on page 9

Australian Electoral Rolls, 1903-1954
about Walter Walden <<Coachbuilder
Name: Walter Walden
Gender: Male
Electoral Year: 1903
State: Victoria
District: Echuca
Subdistrict: Pyramid Hill


Australian Electoral Rolls, 1903-1954
about Walter Walden <<<<Coachbuilder
Name: Walter Walden
Gender: Male
Electoral Year: 1924
State: Victoria
District: Flinders
Subdistrict: Dandenong
Wife; Sara Ann


Has this been posted, I cant see it?

England & Wales, Death Index: 1916-2005
about Walter L Walden
Name: Walter L Walden
Death Registration Month/Year: 1936
Age at death (estimated): 69
Registration district: Fulham
Inferred County: London
Volume: 1d
Page: 454

I presume it's Walter senior? Walters father


And this...Walter jnr? The above Walters son

England & Wales, Death Index: 1916-2005
about Walter Walden
Name: Walter Walden
Death Registration Month/Year: 1955
Age at death (estimated): 72
Registration district: Fulham
Inferred County: London
Volume: 5c
Page: 631



If I'm confusing things please tell me and I'l delete!

x

Colin

In answer to your last post;

This 'Walden' is a joiner........

There was no particular reason I used 'lower' case, except that I was being lazy!

I would have thought that a 'Joiner' was a more modern day term for 'Carpenter' 'Chippy'....etc etc. Older descriptions of such a trade were often referred to as 'Journeyman'

You're thinking toooooo much!!! And, having read this thread over and over, I get the impression that every/any Walter Walden you come across is 'your' Walter!

Ginny
x



PS Where is that certificate? Yes I have been keeping an eye on your thread but have 'butted out' until there is some 'proof' of all the hard work people have been doing

Colin, just to add.

If Tracey and Lindsey can’t find you the answers then you're well and truly 'goosed' as they are top notch researchers...you're very lucky they are so persistent!

Hi There

Yeah frustration a little.... the postal system and the pure lack of anything tangable on WLW !!!

Did you have a look at Military marriages? We need to extablish where Sarah left the picture and Alice arrive....

So we know Sarah was in Aus Oct time 1910 and we know Walter was in the UK Apr 1911, and we know Sarah had a baby Nov time 1911??

Call me daft but Walter would not have had enough time to get Sarah pregnant in Aus and be back in time for the 1911 census?

You said previously.... "Sally has kindly confirmed that she has located Mrs Sarah Walden departing London 7th Jan 1910 destination Fremantle on the oriontes."

You have given us several dates for the departure and also for Charles birth (Oct 11th & Oct 18th 1911)

I have just used a pregnancy calculator and got this......

First date of Pregnancy 10th Jan 2009 for a delivery date of 12th Oct 2009, so assuming the any of the departure times for Sarah, she was either in Aus a very long time before she got pregnant or she was here and left JUST pregnant....

I don't think Walter would have had time to get Sarah pregnant in Aus and be able to get back for the 1911 census as living with a lady as his wife?

I do still wonder if Sarah merely used Walter's name as she was indeed formally married to him and being a single pregnant female she's used it as cover?

Have you tried to search for a divorce?

....still throwing ideas in!

Tracey x

Tracey Hi I'm sensing your frustration. Two quick answers
1. The term Joiner was first used by Ginny on 21st Nov when this thread started I asume ginny knows a lot more about shipping passenger terms than most people do and she used a lower case "j" to describe joiner. I have already said I dont know if it is being used used in the sense of carpenter and joiner, hence the question. One of the knowledgeable researchers that reads this thread will know the answer and hopefully let us know if it has a nautical meaning. L's teachings ensure I do not take anything for granted anymore.
2 The second name is not a problem. Walter Levi Walden is shown on my fathers official birth record from the WA,Registry as being my fathers parent. His wife is Sarah. I have their marriage certificate and both Walter Levi Waldens are named on it.The man she married and his father . Because he married really young Walter b. 1885 has tried to hide the date of his birth at various times but on the baptism evidence it shows as late 1885 and on the BMD as Mar. Q 1886. Both documents carry the Levi name He really does exist and his second name is Levi.
And finally; yes; I am clutching at straws and this would be so for 99% of people in my position.
Hope this info helps you to understand where I am coming from. Regards. .............colin

OK

Walter Walden is a Labourer.... this means he is skilled at NOTHING!

A Joiner is someone who works with wood, a skilled job, this is not your Walter...

I know you want all of these people to be him, and even you now have to admit what we have said all along, you are clutching at straws!!!

Your Walter was an unskilled man living with someone else in Apr 1911.. it takes months for a trip from Aus to Eng, i very much doubt he'd rush it!!!

For him to be living as man and wife with someone he's proably not married to but suggesting he is would take time..... it's not a fast decision, they would lose nothing by stating on the census one was just simply 'boarding' with the other.... Happens all the time....

They made an effort to represent themselves as man and wife...

Now i have to ask, going back to the beginning, how do you know this poor man (Walter Levi Walden) is actually your Walter Walden ??.... bearing in mind nothing i have seen from Aus mentions the 'Levi' at all... is this a person you have stumbled across and have therefore assumed as with other ideas that he is YOUR Walter Walden???

Can you please confirm with facts and surity this Walter Levi Walden is your man??


Tracey x

Hey team -more info and its not looking good for me unless Walter is a crewman on probably P@O ships.Another friend of mind who knows I am chasing info on Walter sent a few attachments for me to look up On the last page of a lot of papers a strong possibility emerged that he was in Aus and was returning back to Eng..
The P@ O ship Osterley which left Australia in April 1910 arriving at Tilbury in Jun. had a Mr. Walden who boarded en-route at Fremantle.His classification is shown as Joiner. Does that mean he works as a cabinet maker or does it mean he joined the ships crew? In any event he travelled 3rd class That would be Walter; all class. He left the ship at Plymouth.This adds to the very early comments by Ginny in this thread.
Given the past history of this research I am not getting too disappointed in the early return date because there is a possibility he is crewing on ships.
Having him as my grandfather would be better than not knowing my real grandfather.
Mathematically speaking its still possible for Walter to get a return trip to Fremantle. He may have been on the ship Sarah sailed on or any other.
He had to be there when she arrived or arrived with her which would have given them a window of opportunity of a few weeks. As we all know it only takes one night.He then had to leave early Feb 1911 to be back for the census. Pie in the sky or possible???

Lindsey
I've sent the request for info to the fulham library and it looks like they open on Sundays so I might get a quick response.
I'm off to bed Bye.

Good stuff Tracey real lateral thinking Every idea is welcome because you just never know with this frustrating reseach.
I'm feeling a bit down because the entries I pinned a lot of hopes on have evaporated like dew on a hot summer morning.
The Walter Walden coming back into Southampton was an older family man travelling with his wife -Talk about deceptive practices I'd like to sue both companies for misrepresentation but then I'm new at this. There is a tantalising entry that places a Walter Walden age 39, which puts him in the ball park for his birth date, on the Berengaria out of new york on the 15th Dec 1925. Well I have plenty of credits left with both copanies so I might try chasing census info.
bye for now

As Walter is 26 in 1911, have you considered he may have already had his Naval career?

Have you searched Military marriages for a marriage of him and Alice?

Did he go to India? He's about the right age! She might be a colonial wife?

....sorry just throwing ideas into the waters...

T xx

Tracey - Your right about Alice Maud she is home with her husband where she belongs according to the census. Back to the drawing board.....colin

Thanks again lindsey You must get up early over there. I will give the library a try.
The info from fmp is that George and his wife travelled to Fremantle on the Orvietto an Orient line top of the range cruiser carrying over a 1000 passengers. It left london docks on 28th Oct 1910 so they probably got into ftle ahead of the Omrah , the one Sarah was on.
There is a tenuous connection with an entry that places a L.Walton born 1885 arr London on 11th May 1912 on the Otranto. That ship departed Brisbane and sailed around the bottom of our country with its last port of call being Fremantle before setting sail for london.If I have to grasp at straws I probably will come back to that entry because it fits the pregnancy requirement. There was good info there but nothing concrete on or about Walter.

I dont have FMP but I have World ancestry and as yet nothing shows up as positively him,

I do find it a bit curious that 2 Tattoos with ships etc would be worn by anyone who hadn't been to sea,

Of course none of the records are complete, so you may have to wait ages for more updates , it's only recently that marriages and baptism records for London have been released.for viewing.So if you can't find anything at the moment, try again in 6months, a year and so on.

Now there is nothing to stop you firing off an email to Fulham Library , it's all on the web and free, I'm sure they will fall over backwards to help you. But don't over complicate you enquiry, just ask for residents of the 2 addresses first.. You need to find out about Chelmsford street from 1904 to 1914 to see when Sarah leaves and Walter reappears.

Tracey -Yes we do have a Chelmsford Rd here slightly different spelling and it is Rd not St. Coincindences abound.
Are they as bad as each other. May be but I like to think of Walter as the villain because I remember Sarah as being a very quiet yet sweet reserved person who like madge my aunt treated me and my mother very well, particularly after the death of Chas. my father in 1946. In recent times with the unfolding of information about walter and sarah my admiration has grown for this lady.
Turning to your other question about the only thing I can say with certainty is that Chas Wm Walden or Weeks as he was known is my dad. His father is open to question.
I now have more information as a result of your questions. I found a death entry for George Wilson b. 1873 Sarahs eldest brother and coincidentally the one that may have been in wormwood scrubs with walter in the 1901 census. He died in NthFremantle in 1955 . The age quoted 84 is a little out of wack but his parents names are acurate. A further check on ancestry and find my past show multiple entries for George wilson but they both have an entry for 1910 the date sarah left London. Very interesting and encouraging as she probably was not on her own and given their history Walter may have stowed away or even worked his passage as a deck hand or something similar.Remember his tattoos; Is there a shipping connection?
Thats all I have for now.......................colin

Lindsey I am pleased to see you are still taking an interest despite the lack of hard evidence which I admit is really worrying me. I appreciate your tip and will put it down as my second priority . My immediate task over this weekend is to finalise if I can the shipping info available through Find my past and Ancestry.As has been said before one or both have an entry for a Walter Walden arriving back through Southampton. There are so many vagaries in these records that I am preparing fmyself for the worst. If the worst happens on to your suggestion.

There is this one...

Name: Walter Walden
Gender: Male
Electoral Year: 1909
State: Victoria
District: Wimmera
Subdistrict: Pyramid Hill

Living with a Sarah Ann Walden, he's a Coachbuilder (yours was a labourer, IE Unskilled)

then there's

Australian Electoral Rolls, 1903-1954
about Walter Walden
Name: Walter Walden
Gender: Male
Electoral Year: 1916
State: Western Australia
District: Swan
Subdistrict: Albany

also living with a Sarah Ann Walden, this one is a Farmer....



T x

Where did we say this one fitted in?

Victoria, Australia, Assisted and Unassisted Passenger Lists, 1839–1923
about Walter Levi Walden
Name: Walter Levi Walden
Estimated birth year: abt 1865
Age: 19
Arrival Date: 16 Apr 1884
Arrival Port: Adelaide, Melbourne and Sydney, Australia
Departure Port: London
Ship: Liguria
Nationality: English

This is Walter the father??

I hate being away from something for too long you forget where your at!

T x

Colin have you ever considered they were as bad as each other??

Maybe she caught pregnant on the trip and she used the fact she was married to hide this and entered her husband as the father??

Chelmsford Road Perth?? are you getting places mixed up or did she actually move to the same address her husband was living at? Or is the rental details from the Uk..... can you please clarify.

I think personally you are needing to look for another Alice..... altho common, it's not THAT common that people lived together unmarried.... and certainly not in such a close proximety to her husband who was still livng....unless he was a serving man?

I cannot remember now but are you the son of the child born after the trip? It has to be said you may never be able to prove whom your Grandfather was, it's certainly looking more unlikely it was Walter!!

What was her arrival date and the birth date of the child again? have you calculated anything from these dates?


Tracey x

Can I suggest the electoral roll for Chelmesford Street 1913/14/15 might be a good place to look , also for brother Alfred at Greyhound road after his marriage ?
You would need to contact Fulham library for the records.

I'm not in favour of basing your research purely on records pulled together from free bmd, that can be so misleading.