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Hi team Well I think I am now making sense of the recent discussions. I have pulled together Walt the sen and Ellens family so that we can make up our mind about Walt the Junior.
It might be the kiss of death Ginny but I am now firmly in your court. Although this is not as good as confirmation by certificates it does stand the test of corroboration through interlocking data. Hey doesn't that sound pretty good. In any case make up your mind, which is a redundant thing to say because you all will anyway. Here it is;.

1883 Walter walden Strong born 15th nov 1883 Dec Q 1a- 274
1885 George philip Walden born 29 0ct. 1885 Dec Q 1a -301
1888 Frederick james Walden born Mar Q 1a -264
1893 Bertie Levi Walden born DecQ 1a -310
1896 William james Walden born Jun Q 1a -355
1899 Alfred Walden born Jun Q 1a -255

A cross reference to the army enlistment for Walter levi shown as that name has the birth date of Walter Strong.There are BMD references for all children and they sort of correlate to census information. Where it doesn't the reason is pretty plain like using james walden as the recognised family name when the records show it is Wm james etc.
Does this help to convince others that there is only the one Walter and whether you like it or not he has been known on official records like his marriage certificate and the birth of his son Chas as Walter levi.We now have what I consider to be his accurate dob and if nothing else that is another step forward. Thanks to you all because you continue to make these discoveries which astound me. Can anyone tell me what name Walt jnr or Walter Strong would officially be known as?

PS Tracey Bertie couldn't be Walter unless they allowed him to marry at age 11. Colin

no Bertie is a separate entity, somewhere back on thread one or two,now lost ,
of course the 1911 census should give children dead and alive.
bertie doesnt seem to be on the later census


1891 England Census about Walter Waldon
Name: Walter Waldon
Age: 24
Estimated birth year: abt 1867
Relation: Head
Spouse's name: Ellen
Gender: Male
Where born: Fulham, London, England
Civil parish: Fulham
Ecclesiastical parish: St Clement
County/Island: London
Country: England
Street Address:

Occupation:

Condition as to marriage:

Education:

Employment status:

View image
Registration district: Fulham
Sub-registration district: Fulham
ED, institution, or vessel: 16
Neighbors: View others on page
Household Members:
Name Age
Walter Waldon 24
Ellen Waldon 24
Walter Waldon 7
George Waldon 5

Hey Mrs T

Sorry hun I dont know what you mean with the Walter/Bertie connection?

Ginny
x

hmmm

Name: Bertie Levi Walden
Record Type: Baptism
Date: 29 Nov 1893
Father's Name: Walter Levi Walden
Mother's Name: Ellen Walden
Parish: Saint Andrew, West Kensington
Borough: Lambeth
County: Middlesex

and

Name: Frederick James Walden
Record Type: Baptism
Date: 18 Mar 1888
Father's Name: Walter Walden
Mother's Name: Ellen Walden
Parish: Saint Andrew, West Kensington
Borough: Hammersmith and Fulham
County: Middlesex

Is Bertie ....Walter??


Tracey x

Ok,

Just need to add somethingto this....

Colin, under the rules of the UK births MUST be registered within 6 weeks.... some take a bit longer for various reasons, however i do know it's almost impossible to have a baptism in Oct of 1885 and a birth registration of Mar 1886 ( and i have to add it's not actually Mar but the Mar Q, which is Jan Feb Mar).

You can quite happily have a baptism after a birth but not the other way round!!

So the birth of a Walter Walden you cling so well to is def not him if the baptism is def him!!

Where does Levi come from? It's quite clearly a baptism name.... (not on the birth details but on subsequent ones like marriage and death) We like doing things like that here...!!

So we need to find the name Levi in either family....

Ginny is a very logical person like myself and Lindsey, we all work very very well hand in hand, her hunch is very very good....it has to be said i've done much reading of this thread lately but not lot of looking as i've been busy working.

I think alot of your thoughts are based on other thoughts and theories. You need to go back to facts and go from there....

We currently have no birth for Walter (fact)
We have a baptism that happens before the birth you think is him (fact)
We have tenuous ships lists for Walter (fact)
We have a birth of a child in Aus 18th Oct 1911 (fact)

For Walter to stow that far and not be caught is hard work, and for him to passage back the same way is asking alot!!!

As for the military marriage i asked you about, the reason i asked was he's clearly 26 in 1911 and therefore could have had 8 years under his belt in the navy prior to then (remembering the ships tattoos)

He enlists twice in the army, so he's clearly escaping something?? Maybe he's a life long F*up who just couldn't settle??

Remembering he contracted VD somewhere, thats not something a happily married settled man gets??

Have we looked for further children after 1911/16 inc deaths? They would possibly have the Batten mmn??

Have you tried to apply for the Syphilis register to see when he was on it until?? (i don't know the protocol for such a list)

There are still sooooo many avenues you have not traversed down instead concentrating on trying to prove doubtful ideas and baseless arguements.

If i were you i'd go completely back to the drawing board and see what FACTS you have, forget the notions and go with facts.

We need certs, birth death marriage....

Tracey x

Your right its 1am here I need some sleep catch up with you later because there is just too much for me to digest right now.
bye

You say that on this census Ellen is a 'laundress'...where does it say that, I can’t see it?

Also back to my earlier post of the baptism. Father Walter; a bricklayer. And well would you believe it, the Walter on this census is, wait for it..wait... ta daa....

1901 England Census
about Walter Walden
Name: Walter Walden
Age: 40
Estimated birth year: abt 1861
Relation: Head
Spouse's name: Ellen
Gender: Male
Where born: Fulham, London, England

Civil parish: Fulham
Ecclesiastical parish: St Alban
County/Island: London
Country: England

Street Address:

Occupation:

Condition as to marriage:

Education:

Employment status: View image

Registration district: Fulham
Sub-registration district: North West Fulham
ED, institution, or vessel: 22
Neighbors: View others on page
Household schedule number: 219
Household Members: Name Age
Walter Walden 40 <<<Bricklayers labourer
Ellen Walden 38 <<<no occupation listed
Bertie Walden 6
James Walden 3
Alfred Walden 2

They're living at '17 Chelmsford St' not 'adeney close' as you state. Where are you getting your information?


Edit;

Just done some digging and you must mean the 1891 census not the 1901

For what it’s worth Colin, if this was my family research I would say with almost certainty that the birth of Walter Walden Strong IS the Walter that is under investigation here.

Of course I couldn’t add this info to my tree without obtaining the birth certificate (Lindsey posted the GRO details under the baptism) but I'd bet a month’s wages it's him

So, take £7 out of your 'Bali' spending money and send for the certificate!

I can’t see any other births that match with the info that's posted here and you don’t have a birth certificate for Walter....conclusion, it's a very good bet it's him.

The records that are available online are not accurate, so if a census/ships record etc states an age, it's not forced to be correct. So the only proof you will find is within a certificate.

Also how do you know that Ellen and Walter sr had many children and possibly another 'Walter', where is the evidence to suggest this?

And yes, a mother can register the birth of her child in her name here in England.

Lastly, baptism dates are not the date of birth. Many children were baptised months or even years after birth so you can’t place an age on a person using this resource. Luckily on the baptism I posted, the vicar had the foresight to add the actual birth date........he must have seen you coming!

Ginny
x

Ginny I don't know where you researchers get this information but it wouldn't surprise me that there was another illegitimate child before Walter Levi Jun.Are you allowed in England to register a child under the mothers surname? Seems weird to me. Whoa I am a bit slow, of course you can hyphenate names of both parents.So Walter jnr. may have an earlier brother also called Walter. But if so why has he not shown up on census and other data Did he die early?
For what its worth heres a little more info from the 1901 census Ellen was working as a Laundress and the family lived at adeney close in fulham
Walt the senior and ellen married in the Sep Q 1886 and then 5 more boys were born in succession. Hope this helps. Do you want access to my tree?

Ginny
There are so many different dates on various papers I have seen - most revolve around 1883/4. I can't find an 1885 reference or what I thought was a Mar Q 1886 recordin the BMD. I don't know the correct protocol to follow but If I use the baptism date. Is this OK. The answer to your second question is no not yet despite paypal advising it had been posted about a week ago still no sign of it here. I expect the christmas mail rush is slowing the post. It had better arrive before next monday because my wife and I are heading to Bali for a short Christmas break and I would like to make some closing comments on this thread before we leave.
I need the info on the certificate to do this properly

now theres a birth to juggle with !

Name: Walter Strong
Year of Registration: 1883
Quarter of Registration: Oct-Nov-Dec
District: Fulham
County: Greater London, London, Middlesex
Volume: 1a
Page: 274 (click to see others on pag



, how dare they !I've just noticed my sign has gone ۩ Lindsey

Hang on a minute. This could be way left field but.............

London, England, Births and Baptisms, 1813-1906
about Walker Walden Strong <<<<<<<<This says 'Walter' on the record
Name: Walker Walden Strong
Record Type: Baptism
Date: 29 Jun 1884
Father's Name: Walter Strong
Mother's Name: Ellen Strong
Parish: Saint Andrew, West Kensington
Borough: Hammersmith and Fulham
County: Middlesex
Born; 15th Nov 1883
Address; 61 Bayonne Villas

Also christened on the same day and living at the same adderss is;

Walter James Kirby Born; 11th May 1884
Parents; Edward (carpenter) and Mary Ann Kirby

Do these people ring any bells? Strange that they give the same address



From reading through this thread, it seems that Ellen and Walter sr married after Walters birth. So could this be his birth with his moms maiden name and his fathers name as the middle name?

The father on here is listed as a 'Bricklayer' Walters mom had the maiden name 'Strong'

If this record is correct and Im not going nuts then this would mean that there may be other records in this name as opposed to Walter Levi Walden

??????????

Ginny
x

Colin

I cant see a birth posted on here for Walter Jr, I may have missed it. Has anyone found a birth record for him?

Ginny
x

Has the marriage cert arrived???

Sorry about that ginny it was late last night when I was trying to wrap up the hectic days postings and I didnt make the link to your post giving the death notice information. Lindsey had only recently suggested the date for Walt the junior which you have confirmed and Walt the senior was already known. However its good that the dates are posted so those with an interest can follow the story with a bit more understanding.
My main concern now is to focus on where Walter was during the period Jan 1911 to Jan 1914.
I am attempting to put a chronological time line down for that period which will attempt to answer the vexed question about whether the birth entry for Chas Wm Walden with Walter levi Walden as his dad is the truth or a fabrication.
At this time it looks like many years of searching will be in vain but to be more upbeat I must stay open to all possibilities but not take anything for granted. bye for now.

You said

I'm sorry but I don't understand the reference to Walt senior and junior deaths.Please let me know if the message is intended for me.


Have I got the wrong end of the stick or have you found Walters death?

I dont know what you mean regarding is the message intended for you? You are researching Walter Walden arent you?

x

Tracey
I realised that I omitted to answer the question about where and when sarah left walter and who then became involved. My subconscious must have told me to avoid the question because its just too hard to answer at this time.Its becoming apparent that the severance MAY have been at the time of the trip to Australia. Lindsey has suggested a way of checking this which I am pursuing So at this time I don't know.
Who may have entered Walters life? Obviously Mrs Alice F Walden nee Batten/Batton? Time will tell.
Thats enough for today except to say its nice to have one of the early responders contributing again as we reach the end of our journey. Bye for now.............colin

Hi Lindsey = This one may have taken 10 days as they not only stopped at all major coastal ports they crossed over Bass strait to dock in Hobart Tasmania as well. With fewer ports they would do Sydney -Fremantle in about 7 days.

Ginny - No need to refer to any one else. I dug up a record of the ships log which I downloaded from ancestry or fmp can't remember which it was some time ago. I revisited the heading which is confusing It stated the arrival date was 1st April and immediately alongside it said Whence arrived Brisbane, Further along the page almost totally unrelated it talks of Port of Arrival Tilbury.I had forgotten that whence arrived is past tense In a nutshell you are right and I am not concerned with the one day difference in arrival.I have also found that the crew are named in the start of the log information so I will be able to chase that information.
I'm sorry but I don't understand the reference to Walt senior and junior deaths.Please let me know if the message is intended for me.

Hi Tracey I'll try and remove some confusion'
Sarah arrived in fremantle early to mid Jan 1911.This was explained in an earlier thread immediately following the Oriontes comment.
My father Charles birth date is 18th oct 1911. Using your pregnancy test the first date should be 16th Jan 1911,fits nicely. Now we have to use some imagination and I appreciate that is what researchers dislike. But I do not know any other way of finding the truth. Walter may have stowed away. If this was the case he would have left the ship to go with Sarah. We will come back to this scenario later. The second and more feasible proposition is he was a crew member. Ginny may be able to tell me how to check this.In the latter scenario he would have said goodbye to Sarah and continued on the round trip back to England which would place him back there before the April census.If he stowed away he would still have to find a way back to england if and I say again if the Mr and Mrs Walden of Hackfield place is the Walter and Alice referred to in Walters army papers.
Bear in mind that those papers declared she was staying with the family at chelmesford st. As someone remarked before there are a lot of Waldens in london.
The othe questions yes I have searched for a divorce for both parties here and in England - no luck. And no I did not look at army marriages because the entry stating their married is before walts enlistment.
I hope it clarifies some of your concerns.
..............colin

SS Osterley, c.1910
SS Osterley sailed regularly from London to Sydney in 45 days, with 282 first, 130 second and 688 ... Material: Photograph of staircase, SS Osterley, c1910 ...

Dont know how long it would take from Brisbane to Fremantle ?10 days ?