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Hi Tracey
Its good to have you back and as always good questions that make me think as well as a critical suggestion that will help a lot.

Answering the questions in the order they come

I have always said that Charles and Madge shared the same parentage and thats why I believed that if the birth certificate was right about Walter Levi being the father of Charles it follows that he is Madges father. I have never deviated from that belief.I think that whoever fathered Chas also fathered Madge and this could mean a relationship that possibly spanned four years.

I don't have madges certificate and you make a number of excellent suggestions as to how this will help. I agree with you and will get it on my return

I also agree with you that to avoid embarrasment Sarah had to hide the fact she was Charles's mother and what better way than to implicate the man who was responsible. i.e. Chalrles William Lovell. with a fictitious wife.

Why does no one else see this connection?

How did she support herself.?

You have to remember that her older brother and his wife arrived in Fremantle only a couple of weeks before her and a relative once told me that Sarah worked as a laundress in perth which also loosely includes Fremantle..

Despite the lack of support for my latest view I believe this line of enquiry holds the key to finding my real grandfather.

I also believe in the proverb "If at first you don't suceed try and try again"

I love the idea of getting madges birth certificate and don't know why I didn't think to get it before. I think its because I was too focussed on Walter Levi Walden.

Bye ...........colin

Tracey

You make some good points and I think the idea of the birth certificate for Madge is the next step in this saga.

Colin, it's really difficult not to become emotionally involved when you are researching your ancestors and it’s easy to build stories in your head of whom they were and how they were....believe me I’ve done it only to be proved so wrong!

The question posed by Tracey about Sarah's ability to support herself and the parentage of the children could imply that she prostituted herself? It's not what you want to hear I know, but it did happen and indeed still does happen.

Sarah and her children had to survive and being a mom, I know I’d do anything to make that happen.

I'm sorry you feel 'alone' and un-supported in your beliefs with this story at the moment but neither me, Tracey or Lindsey are emotionally attached to this family and therefore have an 'objective' view on all this, which is likely to be more 'realistic' than your own thoughts. No matter how painful this may be.

For your emotional sake I hope I am wrong about Sarah but doubt that very much. I’m not judging her if indeed she did survive through prostitution, I’m sure she had her reasons as did thousands of other women of that time.

Bring on Madges birth certificate!

Ginny
x

Thanks Ginny

I realise I am emotionally involved in this so I do need the thoughts of rational people to help balance my own views.

You are all able to do that and the good thing is you say it as it is.

I like that even when I don't agree with what was said or how it was put.

Thats enough on my emotions for the time being.

I have a little more news on pursuing my own dream.

It looks like Chas Wm Lovell of Sth Stoneham is my man (for the time being, anyway) The other prospect stayed in England,married and presumably settled down.

Chas of Sou-Stoneham apparently went to Williams to work after arriving in Perth. This is a small wheat and sheep community not too distant from Perth and importantly at that time it had a rail link to perth.

In Jan 1911 when Sarah arrived in Fremantle,close to Perth , she would have been about 26 yrs old Chas Lovell would have been about the same age at the same time.

So far so good.

He would have been able to see her or she to see him at either location without too much difficulty.The inevitable could have happened with Chas Wm Walden the result.

Unfortunately for the pair of them Chas the elder, for some reason packs his bag and heads to the north west of our big state and is registered in the 1916 elections in the seat of Dampier in our Murchison district. This means he could have left Perth or rather Williams anytime from late 1913.

To put it into the perspective of distance travelled this move is like you leaving london for Valencia in spain.

This area then as it is today is principally cattle country or gold mining.

This is an important time because we know Madge jane was Born in 1914.

Chas Lovell could have been resposible for both births.

I need to find the date he relocated but it is feasible that this move would have ended any relationship that might have started and he may also have departed blissfully unaware of any second child. BUT if so why has he not taken responsibility for Chas Wm Walden Weeks Lovell.

This is the fly in the ointment so to speak. It may be that he left with the intention of returning but it never happened.

Nevertheless after a short stint of a couple of years at Dampier he moved to our Kalgoorlie goldfields at Leonora.

This move prompts me to believe his interests have swung from farming to mining because he basically stays at that location well into his late fifties and it is marginally too remote for regular face to face contact with anyone in perth.

Is this convincing any one that there could be an association of some sort.

I cannot find any marriage or death particulars on him at this time.

It's my belief that Tom Weeks became involved with Sarah sometime during 1914 and its probable that the birth certificate for madge shows his name.- we have to wait and see.

His name might be on the bith certificate but I'll bet pounds against peanuts that Thomas is not the biological father of madge and somehow I will prove that Lovell is.

Quick question. What name did Sarah use when she went to Oz in 1911?

Ginny
x

Mrs Walden because she was travelling with her third son Sidney who died en-route.

Colin..... Stop!!

We assume she used the name Mrs Walden, and a Walden child with her...but at the min it could be any Mrs Walden & child....

Colin you still have no proof this is her travelling, like you have no proof on Walter!

Your arguements on Charles are losing water all the time, we have pretty much established with your agreement, that Sarah was ALREADY pregnant when she left the UK??

Now unless Charles was THE most well endowed man this planet has ever had, or sperm can travel through seawater and into our sewage system, i would say he's not the father??

As Ginny has said you are clutching at straws because of your emotional involvement..... we need to find answers with facts not stories, which is all you have..

We have also learn't over the years he said she said can be so far wrong it's unbelievable.... check out my thread on Maria Liggins, she was a piece of work, and sadly def related....!! supposed to be this nice lady, she was a bigamist a child abandoner of 5 children spanning 2 'marriages' and then ran off and married a virtually dying man 30 years older than her for the money!

People do what people have to do to survive..... The child you say Sarah had, and died on the trip have you got that cert? Currently we have Sarah having 3 children over a 5 year span and we know nothing of any of the fathers..... i know you won't like this but it really is not looking very good huh??

Please stick with facts and stop chasing rainbows....!!! Leave this poor Charles alone, have you searched for him on anyones trees?? I don't want it to be a case like the Alice you found, and you've pinned all this on a completely innocent man!!


Tracey x

Tracey
hI

You are wrong about sarah being pregnant before she left UK. I have never agreed that is the position and on your own tests the first date was something like mid january for the 18th Oct delivery.

On an earlier thread I showed that she had to have been impregnated here in Australia.

I know you don't believe in the pathway I'm taking and you may be right but I think I am getting close to nailing this down.

In a strange way I don't want to go to Bali now because I am turning up info every day that points to Charles and Sarah having a relationship and thomas weeks being the white night and picking up the pieces.

Incidentally Thomas and Sarah had a long and as I understand it a great and harmonious relationship.

This was despite her losing three sons to Walter Levi Walden and then another three sons in the second world war and charles Wm Weeks my dad dying at an early age and then her only daughter Madge dying at home with cancer and another son permanently disabled because of mistreatment in a prisoner of war camp.

Through all of this she kept her placid good nature She really was a remarkable woman and she is my grandmother.

So the bottom line is I am going to convince you with whatever facts I can muster that there was a relationship with Chas Lovell and he was responsible for one or both children prior to Thomas Weeks's involvement.

This will have to happen very soon in the new year when my wife and I return from Bali.

Talk to you again then Tracey Bye ..........colin

Colin

Theres a couple of records I'd like you to post on here so I can peruse them please


1911 Mrs Walden and child...ships record of her arriving in Freemantle

Shipping list for Charles Lovell leaving London in 1907


You mention quite a few records throughout this thread but have not posted any of them. It would be really useful for us if you could do this.

I have some info that I have just found that might prove very interesting, but I need your help with the records first!

Ginny
x

Ginny'
I am embarrassed to tell you they have not been posted because I don't know how to do it My face is red.

I view the info write it down and then transfer it on to this thread so that this becomes my record..

I then transfer it to my tree.

For instance the Charles Lovell info I have is that he sailed out of london on 1st Nov 1907 en route to Fremantle.
He sailed on the Omrah
His age is 22
His DOB calculated from his age was 1885 (The BMD states SEP Q 1886)
His job classiification is Farmer
His particulars are recorded on P3 of 15.

Given time I can find the full particulars for Sarah as well because another researcher got that info for me a long time ago but the brief info I have in front of me is she left on the same ship the Omrah on 11th November 1910 arr. fremantle early Jan. I think a lot of info was posted on previous threads

I checked and the thread was 1/12/2009 23.37. There were 3 numerical references that may help you they are 8382 4419 534

If you really need further info I will chase it up and get back to you early new year.

Just let me know.

You have this record on your tree, then you say he died at sea? later on your notes

This child died in Fulham and never went to sea,

England & Wales, FreeBMD Death Index: 1837-1915 about Sidney Harry Walden
Name: Sidney Harry Walden
Estimated birth year: abt 1909
Year of Registration: 1910
Quarter of Registration: Jan-Feb-Mar
Age at Death: 1
District: Fulham
County: Greater London, London, Middlesex
Volume: 1a
Page: 146 (click to see others on page)

Without buying the birth cert there is NO proof he even was her son.

So that rules out any Sarah Walden and child , travelling anywhere.

Hi Lindsey
I don't understand how I got a record on my tree when I don't even know how to put it there but I've learned that its not smart to argue with you.

I am currently looking for a package of shipping info sent to me by a researcher from an allied website for Ginny. It has information on Sarah and it will help me to answer your questions more correctly. I first have to locate where in the dark interior of my computer I put this package because I thought I might need them at some future time.

I see the significance of the question because if Sidney was not on board then this may not be our Sarah Walden. On the other hand there can be an argument that says there was a Sidney but there was no relationship and sarah was still on board.

In reality it now doesn't matter very much because Sarah had to have arrived in Fremantle to allow events to transpire leading to the birth of my father.

My focus is on the relationship of Chas Lovell, Sarah Walden and Thomas Weeks and I am getting some very interesting information that supports what I have been saying.

I am trying to get some factual data to support what I have found and I will write it up when I return early new year.

Forgive me for not being too excited about the conflict of whether sidney died on the boat or before. Its possible Sarah left him in the hands of family knowing he would not survive the trip but all of this is merely conjecture.

Both you and tracey keep asking where is the proof she had three children and they died Well from her own mouth more or less . She declared on Chas William Walden/Weeks birth certificate that there were three previous children all deceased

As I have tried to imply I understand the need in research to be 100% accurate but that is not what is driving me.

I want to know who my grandfather is and although a !00% accuracy would be nice a 98% probability would still be acceptable. I think I'm getting close.

This is what is has on your tree, only you could have put it there.


Sidney harry Walden
First name: Sidney Known as:
Middle name: Harry Occupation:
Surname: Walden Date of birth: march
Year of birth: 1909 Date of baptism:
Gender: Male Year of death: 1910
Date of death: unsure Source of data: 1a p237

Place of birth: Fulham
Place of baptism:
Place of death: At Sea?
Notes: likely brother of walter and james who died in infancy,see 1a p146

Sidney was shown as embarking from London for fremantle in 1910 the year of his death.

this is what you have on your tree? These are your notes

If he was dead and buried in Fulham, how can he die again at sea ?

Colin you have repeatedly told us that the child died at sea as a matter of fact., can you please write down the entire contents of your fathers birth cert as I have never seen a certificate that tells of previous births before .

England & Wales, FreeBMD Birth Index, 1837-1915
about Sidney Harry Walden
Name: Sidney Harry Walden
Year of Registration: 1909
Quarter of Registration: Jan-Feb-Mar
District: Fulham
County: Greater London, London, Middlesex
Volume: 1a
Page: 237 (click to see others on page)



England & Wales, FreeBMD Death Index: 1837-1915
about Sidney Harry Walden
Name: Sidney Harry Walden
Estimated birth year: abt 1909
Year of Registration: 1910
Quarter of Registration: Jan-Feb-Mar
Age at Death: 1
District: Fulham
County: Greater London, London, Middlesex
Volume: 1a
Page: 146 (click to see others on page)



Lindsey, you have copied info from Colin's tree, however I cant see anywhere where it states he died at sea on the death record I have posted? Although this would be verified by the certificate.

Also, no record on Ancestry for the embarcation in London for Freemantle?

Colin, is this something you have documentation on? If you are getting this info from someone else......I doubt VERY much it's correct.

You know you cant trust everything online, even people who might be giving you info, they could be telling you anything, just for the sake, or they could just be really cr#p at research.

At least here, you have three people who are well known to research and why would all three people tell lies?

I understand your desperation to find your family and heritage but it has to be correct

Ginny
x

Exactly my point Ginny, Without buying the certificate there is no way of knowing who Sidney was related to..... oh dear not again

It looks as if Colin has grabbed some more BMD records and made them his own, Actually he's missed a couple ,hypothetically she could have a football team, but hey let's not muddy the waters further. The incredible Walden sperm bank is looking a bit depleted at the moment.

I've been trawling the interweb and find several other sites with entries over the last few months by Colin, all repeating the same fairy story, not surprising nobody has found anything concrete. I think this is a case of wanting the story to so badly be true, like having an imaginary friend that none else can see.

I understand in the first instance that you wouldn’t buy certificates you don’t need to have, but you DO need to have some sort of proven direction in your search Colin..........but this far in and with sooooo much support you need to go back to the basics of research and that means BUYING certificates

Without this info you will be searching this time next year and the year after and.......

Do you like the attention this thread gives you, or do you REALLY want to find your history...I won’t tell you what I do for a career!!!

Enjoy Bali; I can’t see anything more happening for your home coming.

You can’t post the info on here (caus you don’t know how lol) that you posted on your OWN tree.......... NO one else has access to your own tree, let alone knows your family.

And, if Sydney was born and died the year that I posted then how the hell can he have died on ‘ship’? YOU say, she travelled to oz in 1911???????????????

Are you on 'Crack/Acid' or what mate (Normally I would say 'hun', but am translating for you)


Ginny

PS; Thank You for 'paragraphing'...it really helps

I'm in a rush now .

Have to head for the airport

Too many questions to answer before the new year when I'll give you my side of the story.

I have plagiarised some beautiful thoughts which I send to all of you.

May the forgiving spirit of HIM to whom we dedicate this season prevail again over the earth.
May hateful persecution and wanton aggression cease.
May we all live in freedom and security worshipping as we see fit and loving our fellow man
Let the sanctity of our personal thoughts be ever preserved
And peace through understanding reign over man.

These thoughts apply particularly well to this thread at the present time.

Merry Christmas to all .............colin

Quoting Stevenson along with others won’t get you the answers to your family dilemmas.

You may think we are being harsh and unfeeling but I think you know in your heart of hearts that we are just printing the truth, however hard that is to accept.

Have a good holiday and a peaceful Christmas

Ginny
x

While Colin's away I thought I'd check up on the " Tree" children supposedly born in England to Sarah and Walter

First we have Walter Harry born dec 1905 died jun 1906

Then there is James Philip born Dec 1908 died Sept 1909

Then there is Sidney Harry , born fully formed 3 months after James in March 1909 died Mar 1910

any suggestions ? a miracle !

and there's more !

Yeah, heres one suggestion....'Bin' the tree and start again!

That cannot be correct, where on earth has Colin got that info from? Colin are you just connecting any 'Walden' born/died in Fulham with your family?

Hope the weathers better in Bali, we have a foot of snow here and it's been like that for the last four days!


Birth

Name: Walter Harry Walden
Year of Registration: 1905
Quarter of Registration: Oct-Nov-Dec
District: Fulham
County: Greater London, London, Middlesex
Volume: 1a
Page: 251 (click to see others on page)

Death

Name: Walter Henry Walden <<<<<<<<<Harry?
Estimated birth year: abt 1906
Year of Registration: 1906
Quarter of Registration: Apr-May-Jun
Age at Death: 0
District: Fulham
County: Greater London, London, Middlesex
Volume: 1a
Page: 166 (click to see others on page)


Birth

Name: James Philip Walden
Year of Registration: 1908
Quarter of Registration: Oct-Nov-Dec
District: Fulham
County: Greater London, London, Middlesex
Volume: 1a
Page: 239 (click to see others on page)

Death of a James but NOT a James Philip

Name: James Walden
Estimated birth year: abt 1909
Year of Registration: 1909
Quarter of Registration: Jul-Aug-Sep
Age at Death: 0
District: Fulham
County: Greater London, London, Middlesex
Volume: 1a
Page: 102 (click to see others on page)


Birth

Name: Sidney Harry Walden
Year of Registration: 1909
Quarter of Registration: Jan-Feb-Mar
District: Fulham
County: Greater London, London, Middlesex
Volume: 1a
Page: 237 (click to see others on page)


Death

Name: Sidney Harry Walden
Estimated birth year: abt 1909
Year of Registration: 1910
Quarter of Registration: Jan-Feb-Mar
Age at Death: 1
District: Fulham
County: Greater London, London, Middlesex
Volume: 1a
Page: 146 (click to see others on page)



Ginny
x

Next we have the tale of Walter in Wormwood scrubs,

this might just be him, name spelt with an O age 16?
Colin has connected him to George Wilson, Sarah's brother

{Father John Wilson, coal porter dec'd, family together on 1891 census}

Walter apparently jailed as a lookout for future brother-in-law George's crime.?

Yet again very unlikely , further investigation shows that the George Wilson in prison is born in Forest Gate not Fulham. opposite ends of London ?

Bali Hai, ballyhoo, Fantasy Island !