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Dee, I really appreciate your efforts. Thanks heaps. If I don't get back to you immediately, it is because I am living overseas and four hours ahead of you!

I will check back though later. I have to take my daughter shopping!

once again thanks
Luisha

Hi,

I wouldn't rule William White out yet, we really need to try and pinpoint a marriage for Emma and Eliza (needle and haystack come to mind.. LOL).

Like you say names are often switched around, and if the son is named after his father often the son has his middle name used to prevent any confusion........

I'll keep digging about, the 1871 census would be the best find.... fingers crossed.


Dee x

Dee, my father-in-law is Alan Christopher by birth registration but on my marriage cert he is as Christopher Alan, because that is what his son always believed his name to be!

Joseph White (Junior b. 1901) son of Joseph b.1874 is Joseph William but again my father-in-law had no idea that he even had a middle name until I told him a couple of weeks ago!

There is of course always the possibility that Joseph was actually William Joseph, what do you think? Maybe that is why I am unable to find him?

Dee - I have just located the marriage certificate for Frances Sophia White and William John Rhind through Ancestry.co.uk. IT IS Frances Sophia White, but unfortunately her father was William White, so the father doesn't match.

Hi Luisha,

Compulsary registration was firmly put into place until 1875, I think until that date it was left up to the registrar to track down births..... so many escaped, after 1875 parents were fined if they didn't register births.

I wonder why Frances Sophia stated William as her father? I agree the addresss does look very interesting in 1881...... I would hazard a guess that they were the same family too.


Dee x

Dee - thanks, I have just read your latest post - I think this is very helpful. Because I have a connection to the Galway Street (one of the Addresses that Joseph lived at), it adds to the positive matches!

Assuming that these are all part and parcel of the same family, it seems very odd to me that I have been unable to find connections to births for Eliza and Emma (on the 1881 census) or Joseph (on both 1881 and 1891 census). Would I be correct in thinking that they would have to have been registered at birth somewhere by law?

I agree that Frances could have been Joseph' s sister and it now gives me something else to look for!

thanks again
Luisha

I may have been barking up the wrong tree there???

London, England, Marriages and Banns, 1754-1921
about William John Rhind
Name: William John Rhind
Age: 20
Estimated Birth Year: abt 1859
Spouse Name: Francis Stephan Whiter
Spouse Age: 19
Record Type: Marriage
Event Date: 29 Dec 1879
Parish: Saint Mark, Shoreditch
County: Middlesex
Borough: Hackney
Father Name: George Mackey Rhind
Spouse Father Name: William Whiter >>>>>> Jeweller

Image states Frances Sophia White


Dee x

Thanks Glitter Baby and Dee for taking the time to look. I have all the census entries(!) and have just found the 1861 entry. They all look like they are connected, but without his birth/baptism, I really cant be 100% certain.

Because I can't find a marriage for a Joseph White and Frances (?), it makes me doubt further.

Surname First name(s) District Vol Page

--------------------------------------------------------------------------------
Marriages Dec 1879 (>99%)
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------

Kenning Emily Shoreditch 1c 316
>>>>>>>>>>>Rhind William John Shoreditch 1c 316
>>>>>>>>>>>>WHITE Frances Sophia Shoreditch 1c 316
Wiley Joseph Shoreditch 1c 316



The address interested me here;

1881 England Census
about Frances Rhind
Name: Frances Rhind
Age: 21
Estimated Birth Year: abt 1860
Relation: Wife
Spouse's Name: William J.
Gender: Female
Where born: St Lukes, Middlesex, England

Civil parish: St Luke
County/Island: London
Country: England

Street Address: 33 Galway St
Condition as to marriage: Married
Education:

Employment status: View image
Occupation: Fur Sewer

Registration district: Holborn
Sub-registration district: City Road
ED, institution, or vessel: 8
Neighbors: View others on page
Household Members: Name Age
William J. Rhind 24
Frances Rhind 21
William G. Rhind


Could this be his sister???


Dee x

Hi,

I can't see them in 1871......... could this be Frances in 1861 though??

1861 England Census
about Francis White
Name: Francis White
Age: 25
Estimated Birth Year: abt 1836
Relation: Head
Gender: Female
Where born: Reading, Berkshire, England

Civil parish: St Luke
Ecclesiastical parish: St Barnabas
County/Island: Middlesex
Country: England

Street Address:

Occupation:

Condition as to marriage: View image

Registration district: St Luke
Sub-registration district: Old Street
ED, institution, or vessel: 6
Neighbors: View others on page
Household schedule number: 241
Household Members: Name Age
Francis White 25
Francis Sophia White 2


Stated as married.


Dee x

1901 is this the correct man

Name: Joseph White
Age: 27
Estimated Birth Year: abt 1874
Relation: Head
Spouse's Name: S Susanah
Gender: Male
Where born: St Luke

Civil parish: St Luke
Ecclesiastical parish: St Luke Old Street
County/Island: London
Country: England

Street Address:

Occupation:

Condition as to marriage:

Education:

Employment status: View image

Registration district: Holborn
Sub-registration district: City Road
ED, institution, or vessel: 19
Neighbors: View others on page
Household schedule number: 245
Household Members: Name Age
Joseph White 27
S Susanah White 26



Quite often people put the place where they were living as place of birth


You might find that the birth was not registered



1891 just for info
Name: Joseph White
Age: 18
Estimated Birth Year: abt 1873
Relation: Son
Mother's Name: Frances
Gender: Male
Where born: St Luke, London, England

Civil parish: St Luke
Ecclesiastical parish: St Thomas
Town: London
County/Island: London
Country: England

Street Address:

Occupation:

Condition as to marriage:

Education:

Employment status: View image

Registration district: Holborn
Sub-registration district: Whitecross Street
ED, institution, or vessel: 6
Neighbors: View others on page
Household Members: Name Age
Frances White 50 Reading, Berks
Joseph White 18

I am very much stuck and need somebody with experience to point me in the right direction!

I am looking for something relating to Joseph White before his marriage.
I have certain information.
He was Married in 1900 at St Paul's Finsbury to Susannah Judd. On his marriage certificate his father is listed as Joseph White (decesed). From the 1901/1911 census I have him as being born St Luke London.
From various bits and pieces I have him living at 84 Ironmonger Row, 19 Ironmonger Row, 3 Ironmonger Row, 17 Galway Street, and later in life, 1911 in Gifford Street Shoreditch. He was by profession a Blacksmith (from his marriage cert) and he died in 1940 together with Susannah when there flat was bombed during the war.

Beyond this, I am thus far unable to find him. I have searched for his baptism through the St Luke, Clerkenwell Baptism registers available online fromf 1863-1891 but no luck.

I have found census entries for Joseph White living with his mother (widowed) Frances at 46 Goswell Road, and also on the 1881 census with his mother Frances, Sister Eliza and Sister Emma at 2 Banks Court. I am not suggesting that this is THE Joseph I am looking for as I really cant be sure it is.

I would be really grateful if someone could give me a shove in the right direction. I just dont know where to look for him to find his birth/baptism.

Hopefully!
Luish