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Janey & Viv
I will not delete this thread or any other that I have put on the site. Thank you for all your efforts, it's very much appreciated.
I have been dabbling with this family research on and off for many years and find it difficult to access all these sites from South Africa, so this has been a very enlightening interaction and hope that I could ask for assistance from time to time when I get stuck.
I have sent a message to the GR with the Challenger connection and hope I'll get a response soon. Will keep you up to date & will attempt to complete my shopping list a.s.a.p.
Viv, as soon as I have some feedback on the Eric Valentine link I'll let you know. I have been asked by another GR to assist with some research for her as well.
Warm regards
Peter

Case well fought again,and won again Janey.

I would like to know how the search for Eric Valentine ....s death and sons etc might be going over there please Peter?
Any updates most welcome.
viv

For one last good measure, here are your William's great-grandparents James (both born in Herefordshire) in 1841:

James James 41
Charlotte James 44
Ann James 16
Louisa James 12
Civil parish: Allensmoor
Hundred: Webtree
County/Island: Herefordshire

Odd, though, no Mary, who was born something like 1831-33.

But this looks like her:

MARY ANN JAMES
Christening: 25 JUL 1826 Allensmore, Hereford, England
Father: JAMES JAMES
Mother: CHARLOTTE
Batch No.: C131051

This is the only other baptism in that batch with parents James James and Charlotte:

1. LUISA JAMES
Christening: 24 MAR 1828 Allensmore, Hereford, England

so it looks like Mary = Mary Ann = Ann in the 1841 census.


I'm not going to spoil all your fun, although I kind of have already.

You can find the marriage of James James and Charlotte in the IGI, to get her surname and maybe even go back farther.

http://www.familysearch.org/eng/search/igi/search_igi.asp

Oh, and if you even think of deleting all the fun and info in this thread, I'll reach through my monitor and throttle you!

These are great threads to have on the board, both for demonstration purposes and because you never know, someone searching for the same people as you are may search this board and find this thread, and you.

Speaking of which -- do please try to contact the member here who has the whole Challenger family in her tree and tell us how it turns out!

Mary James had son Charles James.

Mary James married Edward Challenger.
Her son Charles James became known as Charles Challenger.

Charles Challenger (i.e. Charles James) married Clara Wisedale 1878.
They had son Charles William Challenger 1880.

For reasons unknown, Charles and Clara Challenger are not together in 1901.
Charles Challenger (i.e. Charles James) is with his mother Mary James Challenger.
His wife Clara and their children are nowhere to be found. by me, anyway!

Charles Challenger who married Clara Wisedale 1878 was really Charles James.

William Charles James who married Flora Dunsmore was really Charles William Challenger.

James was the real surname of Charles William Challenger's father, who was reared by his stepfather (presumably) Edward Challenger.

Charles William Challenger was known as William, as is often the case for children named after a parent.

Charles William Challenger, for reasons unknown to us, changed his surname to James (his father's real surname) sometime after 1891 and before he married Flora Dunsmore.

In 1911, the Clara Wisedale Challenger, wife of Charles Challenger (i.e. Charles James) and mother of Charles William Challenger aka William Charles James, is living at 403 Long Acre, Aston, with her other son Frank. (I have been unable to trace the daughter Laura/Emily under any name.)

403 Long Acre, Aston, is where Flora Dunsmore James had her twin sons in 1907.


Is that better? ;)

It was all set out in reverse order in the thread, because that's how the trail had to be traced - back.


So your shopping list is:

Marriages Dec 1854
Challenger Edward Hereford 6a 1016
James Mary Hereford 6a 1016

Marriages Sep 1878
CHALLENGER Charles Aston 6d 444
Wisedale Clara Aston 6d 444

Births Jun 1880
CHALLENGER Charles William Aston 6d 387

Marriages Sep 1915
Allen Louisa A Challenger Aston 6d 1448
Challenger Frank Allen Aston 6d 1448
(you did get my messages about this family?)

For marriages, order in one name only.

http://www.gro.gov.uk/gro/content/certificates/


FYI, when I mentioned my gr-grfather's nephew who was in the Imperial Yeomanry and settled in South Africa -- the gr-grfather in question had a history much like your William. We knew him as Monck, born c1850; his son my grandfather was born a Monck; ... but no such Monck person existed in any record before 1883.

Turned out he was really a Hill, not a Monck, just as your William is really a Challenger, not a James. I had to do the same search, backwards through records, looking for people who looked like my Ernest, then tracing them forward to rule them out, hitting on coincidences and similarities to form a hypothesis that eventually couldn't be disproved. The difference is that we know where your William's James name came from, and I still have no clue where my Ernest's Monck name came from!


I really hope that makes sense. I do think it's pretty much indisputable that this is the tale -- all leading up to the one clue you had, the 1907 address!

He was born Charles william Challenger and later changed to James

As posted by Janey

Births Jun 1880
CHALLENGER Charles William Aston 6d 387
>>> the right quarter for May 1, 1880



Passenger lists you will find here

www.findmypast.com

Wow! What can I say...I'm lost for words.
Thank you both very much.
William Charles' date of birth is on his Marriage cert of the 2nd marriage as 1 May 1880 and also on his drivers licence.

WCJ enlisted in the 1st SA Infantry Brigade on 24 Apr 1918 and left for England on 6 June 1918 and taken on strength 1st Res. Batt. posted to K COy 9 Jul 1918.
Left England on 6 Mar 1919 back to Cape Town - arrived 28 May 1919.

Some of the documents I have he has himself listed as Charles William - his son said that he didn't want to be known as a WC all his life.

This whole Challenger thing has me mistyfied. If I'm understanding this correctly his mother is Clara James who had a child out of wedlock (William Charles James) and he was adopted when his mother married Charles Challenger.
When would he have changed his name from Challenger back to James and what would the reason have been?
Where would one be able to get documentary proof of all of this?

I’m glad you wee able to trace Flora and her twins on the passenger lists – please could you let me know where you found it so I can access it and get a copy for my records.

Hope the GR with the WCJ (Challenger) in her tree has more info to shed on this very interesting topic.

Look forward to hearing from you soon.

Sure looks like her!

I've just sent Peter some Challenger names and info for the current generations.

Wonder if this is also her?

UK Incoming Passenger Lists, 1878-1960
about Flora Dunsmore
Name: Flora Dunsmore
Birth Date: abt 1883
Age: 15
Port of Departure: Delagoa Bay, Mozambique
Arrival Date: 9 Aug 1898
Port of Arrival: London, England
Ship Name: Arundel Castle
Search Ship Database: View the 'Arundel Castle' in the 'Passenger Ships and Images' database
Shipping Line: Donald Currie & Co's Colonial Mail Line of Steamers
Official Number: 104827

Shes a nurse and travelling with ,,,selina (native)age 14 also a nurse.

Seems the "native"does not warrant a surname.

So I guess this must be her going back out as its the only one possible.

Name: Miss DUNSMORE
Date of departure: 23 February 1901
Port of departure: Southampton
Passenger destination port: East London, South Africa
Passenger destination: East London, South Africa

Date of Birth:
Age:
Marital status: Single
Sex: Female



Travelling alone.

Terrific - so she travelled home to SA shortly after the twins were born.

Odd that she would have made the voyage alone. First chance to meet the in-laws, maybe didn't know she was pregnant, and then it became high-risk?

William may have had some reason for not wanting to return to England. He may have been like my Ernest ... not wanting to get on the military radar ...

Looks like Frank married:


Marriages Sep 1915
Allen Louisa A Challenger Aston 6d 1448
Challenger Frank Allen Aston 6d 1448

and had one child:

Births Jun 1920
Challenger Frank V Allen Aston 6d 1111

who married

Marriages Jun 1949
Challenger Frank V Wheeler Birmingham 9c 74
to Dorothy E Wheeler

and of course has unfortunately died (a family who went by middle names, it seems):

Name: Victor Frank Challenger
Birth Date: 18 Apr 1920
Death Registration Month/Year: Mar 1991
Age at death (estimated): 70
Registration district: Birmingham
Inferred County: Warwickshire
Volume: 32
Page: 1405

-- I see no death 1984-2005 for wife Dorothy.

But he had two sons, whose details can be sent to you privately.


Edit - Dorothy E Challenger is on the electoral roll to 2003-2007 with a family by a different surname, and in 2002 with another couple.

I FOUND HER ON PASSENGERS.....Yippeeeeeeeeeee
Flora James I mean.

Name: Mrs F JAMES
Date of departure: 30 October 1907
Port of departure: London
Passenger destination port: Cape, South Africa
Passenger destination: Cape, South Africa

Date of Birth: 1883 (calculated from age)
Age: 24
Marital status: Married
Sex: Female
Occupation: Nil
Passenger recorded on: Page 7 of 9

With 4 month old boys.

Mast F JAMES

Mast W JAMES

Transcrition was messed up and had to view to be sure but they are on their own travelling,even though the transcript gives other Jameses with them.

Gosh Im getting good at this lark!!

Edit..
On second look at image she seems to be in company with a Mr J Harris (auctioneer)aged 28.?

There is a GR member with these Challengers in her tree:


> Frank 1887 Allensmore Herefordshire
> Laura 1882 Allensmore Herefordshire
William 1861 Allensmore Herefordshire
Emily 1858 Allensmore Herefordshire
Ann (Annie) 1855 Allensmore Herefordshire
> Charles 1851 Allensmore Herefordshire
> Edward 1817 Allensmore Herefordshire
>>>> Charles 1880 BIRMINGHAM West Midlands England

Your William's sister Emily in the 1891 census was in fact:

Births Jun 1882
Challenger Laura Emily Hereford 6a 501


So that GR member has your William's entire immediate family in her tree.

Cross your fingers that she still has the same email address as when she registered here, and/or is still active on this site, and send her a message!!


Someone else has

Annie 1859 Allensmore Hereford

so you could always try her too.

So now we know where the James surname that he took came from.
You are on a roll girl.
And im still searching passenger lists,but getting no where fast.

Oh!!!


In 1881, he is called William:

Name: William Challenger
Relation: Grandson
[age is 11 months on image]
Where born: Aston, Staffordshire, England

Civil parish: Allensmore
County/Island: Herefordshire
Street Address: Cobhall Com

Mary Challenger 51 - Charwoman
Charles Challenger 28 - General labourer
Clara Challenger 25
William Challenger
>>> James James 90


>>> James James is the father of Mary Challenger!!!


Marriages Dec 1854
> Challenger Edward Hereford 6a 1016
> James Mary Hereford 6a 1016
Morris Caroline Hereford 6a 1016
Powell Thomas Hereford 6a 1016


Charles Challenger -- son of Mary James Challenger, father of Charles William Challenger aka William Charles James -- was born before that marriage. He was really a James.


1861 in Allensmore, Herefordshire:

Edward Challenger 43
Mary Challenger 33
Charles Challenger 10
Emma Challenger 2


Births Jun 1853 ?
James Charles Hereford 6a 415



Peter, I hope you are enjoying this as much as I am. ;)

For the life of me I can't find a one of them in 1901, under any name.

I wonder whether mother Clara herself didn't run off to SA with a new partner. (And I never pass any judgment on these situations, because yes, women and children often had good reason for leaving husbands and fathers - but then, not all men whose wives and children left them were the guilty parties.)

Ok ..
So we have another name change for someone,wonder what he did to do that?
Not the shoemaker running off with the lady in waiting senario anyways..

Challenger to James though?
Much less conspicuous name anyway!

Edit..
I posted same time,Hmmm,,he took stepfathers name for some reason,

So whaddaya think of this wild theory, Viv??

Edit -- Peter, the above are the full details for the 1911 census for the two households I identified on Long Acre, in Aston.



Father in 1901, living with his mother (Ancestry inexplicably separates them into two different households).

Name: Charles Challenger
Age: 49
Estimated Birth Year: abt 1852
> Relation: Married
Where born: Allensmore, Herefordshire, England

Name: Mary Challenger
Age: 72
Estimated Birth Year: abt 1829
Relation: Head (widowed)
Where born: Allensmore, Herefordshire, England

Civil parish: Allensmore
County/Island: Herefordshire


It seems likely to me that the parents are estranged Clara Challenger has partnered with a Mr. James ...

JAMES, Joes Head Married M 40 1871 Labourer General Birmingham
JAMES, Elizabeth Wife Married
18 years F 36 1875 Birmingham
JAMES, Phllis Daughter Single F 12 1899 School Birmingham

-------------------------------------------------------------------------------

Registration District:
Aston Sub District:


Address:
4 Fredrick Place Long Acre

>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>
CHALLENGER, Clara Head Widow F 52 1859 Press Worke Warwickshire Birmingham
CHALLENGER, Frank Son Single M 24 1887 Bottle Washer Herefordshire Allensmore
BURTON, Joseph Boarder Single M 31 1880 Carter Warwickshire Birmingham



Registration District:
Aston Sub District:

Address:
403 Long Acre Nechells Birmingham