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right no more looking tonight off to bed have to be up at 6am for oh, nite nite

Ah good, that was him; I should have gone back to look.

Fingers crossed for the next one!

janey, yesterday at 20.40pm i left a message about charles. in case you missed it i ll recap.
charles arthur skinner covands was sophies son. i got the birth cert on the details you found. she named him charles arthur skinner covands. she was still unmarried at that time and was using her surname of covands. i think she gave him skinner as a christian name beacause 3 months later she married charles edward skinner in jun and then referred to her son as charles skinner,meaning she didnt have to change his name and noone would really know he was born covands.

re the birth in thanet i will order that cert just to make sure. its very close in name, her birth a couple of years out but thats nothing anyway.

this bit iof the family tree is just eating away at me and i am so determined to get to the bottom of it. i dont give up easily but it has given me a few headaches and late nights!!!

I've got a bit lost ... have we ever sorted out whether the birth I suggested is Sophie's son Charles?

Births Mar 1902
Covands Charles A S W. Ashford 2a 860

If it is, I might like this Sophie birth:

Sophia Eve Convander b 1878 Mar Q Thanet 2a 883

since it suggests that Sophie and her mother really had no idea how to spell the name.

You probably didn't find it because you were searching too specifically, Florence. If you search for a name starting Cov you won't find a name starting Con, at FreeBMD.


As for Alexander's status when he married ... no reason to think he wouldn't have lied. ;)

Hannah married Syrett under Alexander's surname, but that could simply have been because she had used it publicly for some time and so was known as that name, and she may even have told Mr Syrett she was a widow, even though she'd never been married to Alexander.

It might be an idea to get the marriage cert for Alexander in 1900 to see what his status was -bachelor or widower-I suppose it is possible he married Hannah in Holland and she left him long enough for death to be assumed and he could marrry again. Unlikely I know but if he is a bachelor then we know that Sophie was born out of wedlock

thanks again gillian for info. yes you are right she could have been taken away to be baptised and then hannah returned later. maybe some kind person will check out the netherlands baptisms, you never know!

Hannah Pitcher b1854 Mar Q Thanet 2a 593
Hannah Pitcher bap 2/4/1854 d of John and Eliza

1871Ramsgate
John Pitcher 53 Fisherman b Chatham
Eliza Pitcher 54 b St lawrence Kent
Hannah 14 b Ramsgate
Frederick 12 b Ramsgate
But I cant find a marriage for Hannah to a Pain

There are 2 christenings in the Netherlands on Ancestry for Sophie Van Coevorden but I dont have world wide sub -maybe someone who does could look at tthem -she could have been born here and taken there to be baptised -Alexander doesnt figure in the censuses between 1861 and 1901 so may have been in Holland ?

hi gillian, thanks for the info.on the 1901 census sophies name is sopie van covinden albeit a different spelling, but this is half the problem, on her marr cer she gives her maiden name as van covaindon again mispelt.
ther e was a story once heard in the family, that someone ran off with a maltese sailor hence, the sallow skin and dark black hair that my mum and her brothers and sisters have. however you know that was just a story and with my grandmother no longer alive there is noone to verify that, although as i said before, fathers job is given as sailor and they were living near to dover which is a large port in thanet.

so who knows. i feel now ive really come to a brick wall. if the father was a sailier from overseas and briefly stopped in uk and then went away, ive no chance whatsoever of tracing who he was. thanks anyway for your help and to everyone else

Alexander b 1853 Mar Q Whitechapel is a brother of the John b 1850 Holland and they both appear together in the 1861 posted above as sons of Thomas and Esther (tho I think the fathers name actualy begins with Ma...)
Alexander does not get married until 1900 and then to a Sarah.
If he and Hannah produced Sophie out of wedlock he could be named as the father if he were present at the registration,but as far as her marriage cert is concerned she could put down anything -no check was made
Registration of births became compulsory in 1875 so since she is not reg under fathers name she should appear under the name her mother had at the time Pain or Pitcher?

I found it on BMD with Ancestry

hi gillian thanks for info. the thanet birth could look promising as her mother was born in ramsgate, same area and they all lived in and around ashford latterly. but where did you find that info, i looked on bmd and found nothing?

also going back to the alexanders family of coervordens, sophies dad was a sailer according to her marr cert, which does not match with the other info found. im sure i mentioned this a liitle way back.

sorry for not getting back last night but the internet stopped working until a wee while ago, hope its ok now.

There is a tree on Ancestry with Sophia and John.

England & Wales, Death Index: 1916-2005
about Sophia E Van Coevorden
Name: Sophia E Van Coevorden
Death Registration Month/Year: 1931
Age at death (estimated): 78
Registration district: Stoke Newington
Inferred County: London
Volume: 1b
Page: 508

Have either of these been considered
Sophia Eve Van Coevorden b1877 DecQ Whitechapel 1a 353
Sophia Eve Convander b 1878 Mar Q Thanet 2a 883

(the first one may be a child of John and Sophia E in 1891 above)

right im back. to refresh i am trying to find sophies father who on her marriage cert is named as alexander van coervorden.no place or dob given. on her mothers marr cert(hannah) it says she is a widow when she married henry syrett in 1901. so at some stage she either must have been married to alexander or she lied.the fact that she named alexander as sophies father must mean something.if he actually was married to someone else, i dont think in them days she would have named himas the father really.

anyway unless i cant get her birth cert, i dont know what else i can do to prove who he was.

going back to charles, i got his birth cert. interesting as sophie wasnt married she named him charles arthur skinner covands, using skinner as a christian name so that when she married edward skinner, she wouldnt need to chane his name, he would be known as charles skinner. at that time she gave her maiden name as covands, yet another alias!!.

so that search is done now. i never found his sister clara or a death, no doubt she had another alias. there was a third child born after she married called may skinner. i have been searching for her but put this on a separate thread as she was definately a skinner without doubt.

not sure where i go from here now. so glad for all your help today, ifi discover anything else new i will come back and let you know
thanks

Yeah, duh, I put the 1901 and then I said we didn't know which bride he married!

Sarah.

1901 the wife's details as she was quite a bit older
Name: Sarah Vancoevorden
Age: 66
Estimated birth year: abt 1835
Relation: Wife
Spouse's name: Alexander
Gender: Female
Where born: Goodmans Fields, London, England
Civil parish: Mile End Old Town
Ecclesiastical parish: Christchurch Stepney
Town: Mile End Old Town
County/Island: London


wonder if this was a 1st marriage for her perhaps
Marriages Mar 1857 (>99%)
De la Fuente Rebecca London City 1c 224
Goldsmid Sarah London City 1c 224 ***
Grysard John London City 1c 224
Rosenheim Myer London City 1c 224*****

Can't find a death for Alexander.

Ancestry (after 1916) has deaths for Coevorden and people with that surname and initial "V", and for surname Van-Coevorden, and surname Vancoevorden.

And deaths before 1916 for Vancoevorden, and Van Coeverden.

No Alexander among them. The 1911 John's dob is given as abt 1850.

A missing bit of info:

Alexander married either FLORA (Jenkins) or SARAH (Rosenheim) in 1900.

The other groom is Isaac Simons so we can't divide the couples up by religion/ethnicity. ;)

This may be linked

1891 census -
Address: 11, Steward Street, Spitalfields, London, Whitechapel

VAN COEVORDEN, John Head Married M 41 1850 Rent & Debt Collector
Holland
VAN COEVORDEN, Sophia E Wife Married F 39 1852
London
VAN COEVORDEN, Selena Daughter F 10 1881 Scholar
London
Kent RD
VAN COEVORDEN, Louisa Daughter F 9 1882 Scholar
Peckham
London
VAN COEVORDEN, Manus Son M 7 1884 Scholar
Spitalfields
London
VAN COEVORDEN, Amelia Daughter F 3 1888
Spitalfields
London
VAN COEVORDEN, Mary Ann Daughter F 1 1890
Spitalfields
London