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Thank you for the extra info,I will add to the file I am compiling for her.

Dilemma Dea..

Do you think I should edit my last post to you know who as the last thing I want to do is upset her,or do you think she will be able to take it ok?

Well Viv,

I went to see if I could trace a 'hint of a connection' to the 'Royal Household' within Caroline's family,
sadly, I didn't come up with one but I did trace her parents and at least some of her siblings:

These would be siblings:

Thomas Brown Baptism 15 Aug 1817
Saint Mary, West Twyford Ealing

Lucy Jane Brown Baptism 26 Sep 1819
Saint Mary, West Twyford Ealing

Caroline Sophia Brown Baptism 25 Feb 1821
Saint Mary, West Twyford Ealing

John Clark Clubb Brown Baptism 8 Feb 1824
Saint Mary, West Twyford Ealing


Parents' marriage:

THOMAS BROWN
Marriages:
Spouse: JANE CLUBB Family
Marriage: 04 AUG 1816 Isleworth, London, England

Extracted marriage record

...............................................

The witnesses on the wedding cert you have for Caroline would probably be her brother Thomas and sister Lucy Jane, by then
married to Edward George Dickins:

LUCY JANE BROWN
Marriages:
Spouse: EDWARD GEORGE DICKINS Family
Marriage: 04 NOV 1838 Saint Botolph Bishopsgate, London, London, England

Extracted marriage record

...................................................

This is Edward + Lucy Jane on 1841:

1841 England Census
about Lucy Jane Dickens
Name: Lucy Jane Dickens
Age: 22
Estimated Birth Year: abt 1819
Gender: Female
Where born: Middlesex, England

Civil parish: St Sepulchre Without Newgate
Hundred: London Without the Walls
County/Island: Middlesex
Country: England

Registration district: West London
Sub-registration district: North
Neighbors: View others on page
Household Members: Name Age
David Murphy 9
John Rich 24
Sarah Rich 24
Catharine Rich 9 Mo
John Hubbard 30
Caroline Hubbard 23
Edward Dickens 24 Whitesmith
Lucy Jane Dickens 22
Jane Caroline Dickens 1
Lucy Dickens 13 days

Source Citation: Class: HO107; Piece 728; Book: 1; Civil Parish: St Sepulchre Without Newgate;
County: Middlesex; Enumeration District: 1; Folio: 18; Page: 30; Line: 5; GSU roll: 438832.

Dea x

HA HA AHA,
Dea,I am nearly as lost as you.
But it would seem that we end up with it looking very likely that it is the correct couple/marriage.
Caroline was born in Middlesex,George in wiltshire and Caroline has the middle name of Sophia which Alfred charles watkins /perkins used for the middle name of his daughter Alice.

Janey..
Now calm down,I did say that I had some small potted history,but you have always told me to take that sort of thing with a pinch of salt and go on your own findings,in fact I remember some years back it being one of the first things you said about another potted history ,,which is my own "Darlings"of the EER jobbie.

And no FRED has turned up in this family and as i said before when listing childrens names it was the only other one mentioned other than Alf and Eliza,as she didnt know the others names
Maybe it was mixed up with Frank but apparently the FRED had a commision in the army ,but I dont see Frank having that...
And too much info from some elderly bods memories can often get in the way of fact or what it is you are really looking for..

x x x ;))

Ps I do wish I had your way with words and compiling things,but sigh,we cant all be perfect...:)

Good Morning Viv,

Just had a read through but have got a bit lost - Could you just bring me 'back to reality' with the following info please?

We seem to have started off looking for Alfred's father as 'John' - we then settled on him being 'George' - married to Caroline.

You seem to have the marriage cert for George and Caroline, Is it 'definite' that this is the correct couple?

I have some more info on them but won't post it until you confirm.

Thanks,

Dea x

You can cross Caroline Williams off -- she was in the asylum in 51 and 71 as well.

Good of you to get all that family info *now*, Viv ...

Hmm..... Frank remained a Perkins then it would seem.
Just thinking out loud and placing it together,so lots of editing will go on here.
1881
Name: Frank A. Perkins
Age: 26
Estimated Birth Year: abt 1855
Relation: Head
Spouse's Name: Priscilla
Gender: Male
Where born: Bromham, Wiltshire, England

Civil parish: Aston
County/Island: Warwickshire
Country: England


Baby caroline or mum caroline?

Deaths Dec 1861 (>99%)
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------

Perkins Caroline Devizes 5a 52


Deaths Sep 1851 (>99%)
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------

PERKINS Edwin Devizes 8 *4
PERKINS Edwin Devizes 8 214

May be so Janey,but I cant find a marriage for Ann and george/john/perkins/watkins.
And why not just live in sin,they lived far from any family,so who would know the difference?

The G,aunt writes that upon the death of the first wife in childbirth the shoemaker was distraught,took to the drink and wandered the roads of wiltshire and Herefordshire,for a while with Alfred Charles in tow,Alfred recounted this it would seem ,but remember he was only a child,so may have thought that mother had died in childbirth ,but she was in the workhouse as you say under initials only,just dying later of complications from childbirth maybe.


Then Ann came along and turned out to be a fairy stepmother,got them out of the workhouse and made a home for them even taking in washing to help feed and clothe them.
Alfred is said to have looked back on life after mother died "with horror"and was loathe to speak of it,but he and Eliza were "devoted"to each other.

But where did all the rest of the children go?

Back to reality now Viv,,,giving up for this night ,but will look some more on the next days eve.

You don't suppose??? And then George changed his name so he could marry ...


1861

Name: Caroline Williams
Age: 41
Estimated Birth Year: abt 1820
Relation: Patient
Gender: Female
Where born: St Maryletone, London, England

Civil parish: Devizes St James
County/Island: Wiltshire
>>> where the children are in 1861.

ED, institution, or vessel: County Lunatic Asylum


She shows as unmarried dressmaker ...

Ah, okay. Baby Caroline born just before 1861 census, mother Caroline likely dies later same year.

Leaving: mother Caroline should be in 1861 somewhere.

Ha.

Any chance the parents were in a workhouse and listed only by initials?

Caroline one could imagine, if she were disabled by childbirth or such. But why would an apparently able-bodied shoemaker be in an institution one census and not the next? (My grx3 grfather was in the workhouse in Mere, Wiltshire, by 1851, was there in 1861, and died there, presumably, in 1869.)

... I just had a great theory, that it was all the other way around -- she ran away and became the housekeeper to Viscount Templeton (Virct Templetown), Irish peer (just like the Moncks!) ... but that one is already his housekeeper (Visconnt Templetour) in 1851 ... blast ...

Carolines sophias death must be the dec 1861 that you posted as baby Caroline was born early 1861 and in the workhouse also.
So Caroline sophia is missing on 1861 census also?

So many reasons people had for name changes. Mine was the son of a Viscount's brother, remember. Really, he had deserted rather than be fodder for the Afghanistan adventure 130 years ago (I'm very glad); why the name in question I still don't know, except that it was his sister's middle name and she adopted it too.

If we could find the slightest trace of them (or the earlier kids) in 1861 it would be really nice. I have tried everything - given names, surnames, places of birth, likely places of residence - to no avail at all.

The children went into the institutions as Perkins before 1861, and were Watkins by 1871. Where was George Perkins / John Watkins in 1861? I think we can work on the assumption Caroline died before 1861. Other than that ...

Dea,,I have to talk to them SOMETIMES, so I use feeding time to do it.LOL.

Thats all the furries and none furries included!

I will "fix "the 1851 entry as instructed ma'am,have been fixing her "Other" side as I went along also,thats been fun too!

Oh dear ,oh dear,just realised that on her marriage Caroline couldnt write,signed with her mark.
George could write.

Witnesses,Thomas Brown and Lucy jane Dickins

*********************************************************************

Name: Caroline Sophia Brown
Record Type: Baptism
Date: 25 Feb 1821
Father's Name: Thomas Brown
Mother's Name: Jane Brown
Parish: Saint Mary, West Twyford
Borough: Ealing
County: Middlesex

If there is no truth to any of it ,,why the name change ,,is what I wonder.
Going to check your edit.

Check my edit in the post above re Caroline Sophia Brown of Brentford.

I don't think we've disproved anything yet.

What was George Perkins of Bromham, Wiltshire doing marrying in Shoreditch?

How many children of George and Caroline do we have?

George
Charles
Edwin
Alfred
Eliza
Frank
Caroline.

Any more?
The mother of Alfred was supposed to have 6 ,I girl and 5 boys,Ok we have 7 but 2 girls,caroline and and charles could well have died ,I dont really see 2 Charles in the same family,so named after the deceased brother.
We are missing 1,Fred! the only other name of a sibling besides Eliza in G.aunts writings,but may have been confused with Frank?

They were in london town ,they go to Wiltshire,and end up in Hereford at some point ,just as G aunt says.

Seems to be the family to me.

Down to certs now I guess to cement it all.

I would like to thank one and all on behalf of my friend for disproving, or pretty well,the fairy tale.
Or should that be NOT thank?

Eliza ran a sweet shop in "lozelles rd "in later years with her husband,the name appears on census,so that puts more credence to G.aunts writing,such a shame it was all a fairytale after all but I expect you are right and she was just a scullery maid really,although Eliza apparently always said her mother was a lady,so it probably came from that wording.

Still it begs the question,,why the name change?

Gawdd Viv!!!!

You have been feding them for nearly two hours now - You must have been starving them for days !!!!!!!!! (tee hee!)

Have to go off line now but will catch up tomorrow.

Best wishes,

Dea x

They married in Shoreditch. Now there's an interesting turnup. Verrrry interesting. Married and ran off home (George's) to Bromham?

>>> edit >>> Viv >>>

In 1851, the census record for Caroline at Ancestry gives place of birth as "Brentford, Wiltshire".

The image says "Middlesex Brentford" clear as day. You need to fix it, and also add her full birth name. You never know what might come of such fixes!

And the index I don't have access to at Ancestry has:

London, England, Births and Baptisms, 1813-1906
UK Parish Records
Name: Caroline Sophia Brown
Mother: Jane Brown
Father: Thomas Brown
Birth: date - city, Middlesex


I was just going to say - if you want to get tangential at all, this is George's brother Edwin from the 1841:

1861 in Bromham:

Edwin Perkins 39 - cordwainer = shoemaker
Alfred Perkins 11 (I read it as 16 maybe; listed before James)
James Perkins 13
Stephen Wakeley 18

1851 in Bromham:

Edwin Perkins 30
Alfred Perkins 7
James Perkins 4
William Giles 73
Elizabeth Giles 46

They both had sons Alfred.


Of George and Caroline's children in the 1851:

George Perkins 4
Charles Perkins 2
Edwin Perkins 1 Mo

no trace that I can see.


In 1871 in Chippenham, Edwin's son James who was 4 in 1851:

James Perkins 23 - born Bromham, coachman (domestic)
Mary A Perkins 30
Caroline H Perkins 2 months


Just for good measure, Alfred and Eliza in 1881

Name: Alfred C. Watkins
Spouse: Harriet
Birth: abt 1853 - Devizes, Wiltshire, England
Residence: 1881 - Aston, Warwickshire, England

Name: Eliza J. Watkins (servant)
Birth: abt 1857 - Devizes, Wiltshire, England
Residence: 1881 - Edgbaston, Warwickshire, England

But first..

London, England, Marriages and Banns, 1754-1921
about George Perkins <<<shoemaker
Name: George Perkins
Age: Full Age
Estimated Birth Year: abt 1840
Spouse Name: Caroline Sophia Brown <<<servant
Spouse Age: Full Age
Record Type: Marriage
Event Date: 27 Sep 1840
Parish: St Leonard Shoreditch
County: London
Borough: Hackney
Father Name: George Perkins <<shoemaker
Spouse Father Name: Thos Brown <<smith