Find Ancestors

When you get a bit of time to catch your breath, you might check out the following:
http://www.genuki.org.uk/ [especially Lancs]
http://www.ukbmd.org.uk/index.php?form_action=local
especially http://www.lancashirebmd.org.uk/
[The GRO isn't the only place one can buy a BMD cert - one can also buy them from the local RO and some have their own indices online, and they contain different info from the GRO index at:
http://www.freebmd.org.uk/cgi/search.pl ]
Re FreeBMD - suppose I get a hit like:

Marriages Mar 1868 (>99%)
Hogg James Preston 8e 621

If I click on the "Preston" link, then the more info "here" link, it tells me all the villages, etc in Preston Rego District. If I click on the page # "621", I get to see all the folk on that page:

Marriages Mar 1868 (>99%)
Hogg James Preston 8e 621
Holliday Sarah Preston 8e 621

Here, there's only one couple, but in general there are 2 or 4 couples, and one usually doesn't know how they're paired off.

The GRO copies the local registers every quarter, and binds groups of rego districts together, so all the Lancs regos go into Vol 8e, and then the index says which page they're on - at this time there's 6 per page. The local RO collects the regos from each church, and each subdistrict office, pretty much when the rego's full. So the local index usually has the ref as the subdistrict/church, the rego #, and the entry #, and usually the year (although that's not really necessary). Since the entry # is indexed, one can match up bride & groom, and names might not be recorded in the same way. E.g., the GRO's Margaret H Bailey B1925q1 is Blackburn's Margaret Hilda Bailey B1925.
One might also infer movement from sub-district info: e.g., BSW 1922q1-1925q1 BSE 1926q2 BSW 1929q3-1930q4 BN 1933q2.


Births Mar 1922 (>99%)
Bailey Agnes Hogg Blackburn 8e 590
Lancashire Birth indexes for the years: 1922
Surname Forename(s) Sub-District Registers At Mother's Maiden Name Reference
BAILEY Agnes Blackburn South Western Blackburn BSW/22/86

Births Sep 1923 (>99%)
Bailey Elsie Hogg Blackburn 8e 550
Lancashire Birth indexes for the years: 1923
Surname Forename(s) Sub-District Registers At Mother's Maiden Name Reference
BAILEY Elsie Blackburn South Western Blackburn BSW/25/56

Births Mar 1925 (>99%)
Bailey Margaret H Hogg Blackburn 8e 498
Lancashire Birth indexes for the years: 1925
Surname Forename(s) Sub-District Registers At Mother's Maiden Name Reference
BAILEY Margaret Hilda Blackburn South Western Blackburn BSW/28/25

Births Jun 1926 (>99%)
Bailey James Hogg Blackburn 8e 508
Lancashire Birth indexes for the years: 1926
Surname Forename(s) Sub-District Registers At Mother's Maiden Name Reference
BAILEY James Blackburn South Eastern Blackburn BSE/24/10

Births Sep 1929 (>99%)
Bailey Jean Hogg Blackburn 8e 427
Lancashire Birth indexes for the years: 1929
Surname Forename(s) Sub-District Registers At Mother's Maiden Name Reference
BAILEY Jean Blackburn South Western Blackburn BSW/35/24

Births Dec 1930 (>99%)
Bailey Ernest Hogg Blackburn 8e 387
Lancashire Birth indexes for the years: 1930
Surname Forename(s) Sub-District Registers At Mother's Maiden Name Reference
BAILEY Ernest Blackburn South Western Blackburn BSW/36/83

Births Jun 1933 (>99%)
Bailey Norman Hogg Blackburn 8e 369
Lancashire Birth indexes for the years: 1933
Surname Forename(s) Sub-District Registers At Mother's Maiden Name Reference
BAILEY Norman Blackburn Northern Blackburn BN/116/14


Incidentally, if you need to check a year that FreeBMD haven't transcribed yet, and it's not a death pre 1984, then look them up on Ancestry, and add to your shopping basket - it will give the details needed to place an order. Actually placing the order thru Ancestry means you'll have to pay their handling fee and profit, so I would normally backout here, and place it online myself with the GRO at a price of 7 GBP. If it's pre-1984, then you can check the image youself, either clicking on the spectacles by a transcribed FreeBMD entry, or else by their view images link:
http://images.freebmd.org.uk/cgi/choose.pl


For Lancs Old Parish Registers, see:
http://www.lan-opc.org.uk/indexp.html

Ok well hopefully the death certificate will be arriving in the next few days as I ordered it last week and it will give me her date of birth.

I really appreciate all the help you and others have given me. I didnt want to just give up as I didnt know how to find out any information.

Jane

I wouldn't be too concerned about the difference in birth dates. The person who registered the death didn't always know the correct birth date. Could it be that she was born in Dec. 08 but not registered until Apr-Jul quarter 09?
You're certainly not pestering with your questions. It's a pleasure to help someone like yourself who answers the question on the thread and is willing to do your own look-ups with a little guidance here and there. Keep it up.
It certainly looks as if gran was an illegitimate child, doesn't it? Unless of course she married someone with the same name as her maiden name.

My gran is giving me it tomorrow. She doesnt like talking about family much and hasnt got a good memory as she forgot she had a sister. I have my gran on the birth index and she has the same name as her Mothers maiden name. I found my great gran on the death index and have sent for her death certificate but in the index it lists her d.o.b as 27/12/1909 but i have found her in the births for month April - July. will this be the same person?

I hope that I am not pestering you with all my questions.

Jane

Hopefully gran will dig out that birth certificate for you to see. It sounds, though, as if she could be an illegitimate child and might be embarassed. Why don't you look up her birth on FreeBMD, presuming you know the year, and see if a mother's maiden name is listed, or if mother's maiden name is the same as the child's.

Thankyou. I know it might seem a really silly question how did you find all this out? Is there any tips you can give me to get me on my way. Or is it best to when i am stuck to post a thread?

As I am also struggling with my grans side of the family. She is still alive but dosnt know who her dad was or her mothers Maiden name. She isnt sure if her dad is listed on her birth certificate. Hopefully she will dig out her birth certificate for me.

Jane

http://frontierinfo.com/LAN-OPC/Preston/Preston/stluke/index.html
Baptism: 26 Mar 1893 St Luke, Preston, Lancashire, England
Albert Hogg - Child of James Hogg & Dora
Abode: 6 Young Street
Occupation: Weaver
Baptised by: WC Lewis Curate
Register: Baptisms 1887 - 1898, Page 111, Entry 881
Source: LDS Film 1471020


Incidentally, when you look up James in 1881, note his dad isn't the normal "head", so check out the "previous household" link for his landlord

Ok that now makes sense. I was confused where Edward came from. wish my family was straight forward to ease me in but no such luck.

I have ordered 2 death certificates from other family members so hopefully they will give me more information to get me going.

Jane

If you look at the Preston RO index entry for Dora's birth, you'll see her mum's MS is Clement, just like Dora's surname. Although occassionally one does get a Clement vs Clement marr, the overwhelming majority of situations where one sees this is with illegitimate births, and I would guess this is what we have here, and Edward is just a polite fiction added to her m.cert to conceal this.

One can see a transcription of the 1881 census at:
http://www.familysearch.org/eng/search/frameset_search.asp?PAGE=census/search_census.asp

To see the original you'll have to buy credits on Ancestry, or more likely, ask someone to send it to you. (You'ld do this in a private message, since you'ld need to give the donor your real email addy - I don't have an Ancestry sub, but if you needed to send me a pm, you'ld just click on the "mgnv" at the head of this post, and it kicks you into message composition mode.

Google 1911 census - you can get what I got for free, with a bit of effort, but it costs 3+ GBP to view the image. If there's only one Dora Hogg in Blackburn, you can just ask who's all the other people with her in census ref=rd474 (rd474=Blackburn). I kept guessing their pobs and relationships and searched until I got them right. Not too hard as I'd seen:

Births Dec 1894 (>99%)
Hogg Lily Preston 8e 600

Births Dec 1904 (>99%)
HOGG Lottie Bolton 8c 397

Births Jun 1907 (>99%)
Hogg Ernest Blackburn 8e 349
[note spelling]

I got the parents accidentally when I got Lily - course, they might have said Walton le Dale, Deane and Darwen, picking just 3 villages within the rego districts, but I got lucky.

No, Jane, I think Dora was the illegitimate daughter of Agnes Clement. Clement was her maiden name. Dora evidently made up a father's name at the time of her marriage rather than admit she was illegitimate. Also Agnes is unmarried on the 81 census and she has daughter Dora. Most of us a have a similar case in our trees.

Thankyou.

So Doras father was Edward Clement. Does this mean that Agnes must also of married him to become a Clement also.

How do I view the census that arent on genes reunited like the 1881 1911 ones.

I really appreciate all the help you have given me Margaret. I know i would of been completley lost by now. I am learning slowly how to get my head round it.

Jane

You're lucky they came from Preston, as the local RO index gives the mum's MS.
http://www.lancashirebmd.org.uk/

Lancashire Marriage indexes for the years: 1892
Surname Forename(s) Surname Forename(s) Church / Register Office Registers At Reference
HOGG James CLEMENT Dora Preston, St Luke Preston 231/2/156



Lancashire Birth indexes for the years: 1871
Surname Forename(s) Sub-District Registers At Mother's Maiden Name Reference
CLEMENT Dorah Preston Preston CLEMENT PRES/196/30

Lancashire Birth indexes for the years: 1872
Surname Forename(s) Sub-District Registers At Mother's Maiden Name Reference
HOGG James Preston Preston HOLLIDAY PRES/199/92

Lancashire Marriage indexes for the years: 1868
Surname Forename(s) Surname Forename(s) Church / Register Office Registers At Reference
HOGG James HOLLIDAY Sarah Higher Walton, All Saints Preston 215/1/29


Lancashire Birth indexes for the years: 1893
Surname Forename(s) Sub-District Registers At Mother's Maiden Name Reference
HOGG Albert Trinity Preston CLEMENT TR/40/73
Lancashire Death indexes for the years: 1893
Surname Forename(s) Age Sub-District Registers At Reference
HOGG Albert 0 Trinity Preston TR/27/100

Lancashire Birth indexes for the years: 1894
Surname Forename(s) Sub-District Registers At Mother's Maiden Name Reference
HOGG Lily St Peters Preston CLEMENT ST.P/49/63

Lancashire Birth indexes for the years: 1896
Surname Forename(s) Sub-District Registers At Mother's Maiden Name Reference
HOGG Arthur St Peters Preston CLEMENT ST.P/55/15
Lancashire Death indexes for the years: 1897
Surname Forename(s) Age Sub-District Registers At Reference
HOGG Arthur 0 St Peters Preston ST.P/39/68

Lancashire Birth indexes for the years: 1898
Surname Forename(s) Sub-District Registers At Mother's Maiden Name Reference
HOGG Fred St Peters Preston CLEMENT ST.P/61/8
Lancashire Death indexes for the years: 1899
Surname Forename(s) Age Sub-District Registers At Reference
HOGG Fred 0 Trinity Preston TR/38/47

Lancashire Birth indexes for the years: 1901
Surname Forename(s) Sub-District Registers At Mother's Maiden Name Reference
HOGG Florence Trinity Preston CLEMENT TR/61/20
Lancashire Death indexes for the years: 1901
Surname Forename(s) Age Sub-District Registers At Reference
HOGG Florence 0 Trinity Preston TR/42/66

Lancashire Birth indexes for the years: 1902
Surname Forename(s) Sub-District Registers At Mother's Maiden Name Reference
HOGG John Trinity Preston CLEMENT TR/63/80
Lancashire Death indexes for the years: 1902
Surname Forename(s) Age Sub-District Registers At Reference
HOGG John 0 Trinity Preston TR/43/54

1911
HOUSEHOLD HOGG JAMES M 1872 39 Blackburn Lancashire head pob=Preston
HOUSEHOLD HOGG DORA F 1873 38 Blackburn Lancashire wife pob=Preston
HOUSEHOLD HOGG LILY F 1895 16 Blackburn Lancashire daughter pob=Preston
HOUSEHOLD HOGG LOTTIE F 1905 6 Blackburn Lancashire daughter pob=Bolton
HOUSEHOLD HOGG EARNEST M 1907 4 Blackburn Lancashire son pob=Blackburn
[rd474]

Yes, on the 1881 census Dora Clement is the daughter of Agnes who is unmarried.

Looks like Dora was an illegitimate child of Agnes Clement. Here's the marriage of Agnes to John Barnard and her father's name is Clement so that must be her maiden name. (Remember on the 1891 census Dora' mother was Agnes Barnard.)

BARNARD, John Age: 47 Marriage
Wife: Agnes CLEMENT Age: 49
Marriage Date: 11 Apr 1886 Recorded in: Preston, Lancashire, England
Collection: Holy Trinity
Husband's Father: John BARNARD
Wife's Father: Joseph CLEMENT
Source: FHL Film 1470818 Dates: 1872 - 1900

Ok thankyou so much for all your help. If I take the information from that and research the informaton that you have helped with hopefully i will get somewhere.

Here's the JamesHogg/ Dora Clement marriage on BVRI:

HOGG, James Age: 21 Marriage
Wife: Dora CLEMENT Age: 21
Marriage Date: 24 Dec 1892 Recorded in: Preston, Lancashire, England
Collection: St Luke
Husband's Father: James HOGG
Wife's Father: Edward CLEMENT
Source: FHL Film 1471020 Dates: 1864 - 1900

OK, Jane, I think we're on the right track now. Your family is the Preston, Lancashire one. Forget all about that 1901 census that we started out with, you're not related to that Daintry family from Cobourg, Canada.

Hi. The information I was given form my grandma was a Dora and James Hogg who had Lily who married John Bailey they had 7 children form what my grandma gave me with which she is one of them who was Jean which married my grandad Harry Booth. My grandma was born in Blackburn and I know that my great grandad John Bailey was a spy in ww2 and was in the newspaper. My grandma gave me clipping of him in the paper but bein young when she gave me them I mispalced them. Hopefully they are some where in the house.

Hope this is more information. My grandma gave me most of the information for my family tree even names for the Booth side of the family so I am sure she wouldnt of gave me the wrong name. Sorry if i am giving usless information. Iamonly 26 myself so really have no clue what i am doing and non of my family has any interest in helping me
Jane

Oh, she was Dora, mistranscribed as Dinah on the 1901 census. Here they are in 1891:
39 Salter St., N., Preston, Lancashire
Agnes Barnard, head, widow, 53, cotton weaver, born Cumberland, Windemere
Dora Clement, dau, single, 19, cotton winder, born Preston
James Hogg, visitor, single, 19, warehouseman, born "

Possibly Lily's birth?

Births Dec 1894 (>99%)
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------

Hogg Lily Preston 8e 600

And could this be the family on the 1901 census even though wife's name is Dinah not Dora? (Just misheard by the enumerator?)

1901 census
1 Back, Ribbleton St., Preston, Lancashire
James Hogg, head, 29, general labourer cotton mill
Dinah, wife, 29
Lily, dau, 6
Florence, dau, under 1 month
Ruth, sister, 23, cotton weaver
Nancy Howe, boarder, 24, cotton card room hand
All born Preston except boarder born Blackburn.