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Uh ... Catherine ... you've had that birth certificate all along, and there we were all searching for the birth ...

You started by saying his mother "could possibly" be Catherine Lyons. Is his mother's name not on his birth certificate? I don't know how it couldn't be.

Also an address, and the date of registration?

1901

Name: Charlotte Mitchell
[Charlotte Lyons]
Age: 31
Estimated birth year: abt 1870
Relation: Daughter
Mother's Name: Mary A
Gender: Female
Where born: Manchester, Lancashire, England

Name: John Mitchell
Age: 32
Estimated birth year: abt 1869
Relation: Servant
Where born: Manchester, Lancashire, England

Civil parish: Manchester
County/Island: Lancashire

Mary A Lyons 64
Charlotte Mitchell 31
John Mitchell 32
Martin Lyons 23
Mary A Mitchell 2 - granddaughter to Mary A Sr.


Catherine's name has been automatically added to by Ancestry because her mother is in the household.

The image is very faint. Can't read marital statuses, or John's relationship. Charlotte's mother was born in Dublin, Ireland.



Is this something you already know too??

-- edit -- yup, I see now you said you can't find the parents "before 1901".

You have all this information (dates and places of birth, one child's name and info) and you're holding it back. It really doesn't help, or provide an incentive to help, when you do that.

1891 in Manchester:

Martin Lyons 52 - born Ireland
Margaret Lyons 54 - "
Charlotte Lyons 21
Frank Lyons 19
Martin Lyons 14


Marriages Jun 1898
Ball Catherine Manchester 8d 467
BARLOW Joseph Manchester 8d 467
LYONS Charlotte Manchester 8d 467
Mitchell John Edward Manchester 8d 467


Likeliest candidates:

Births Sep 1870
Mitchell John Edward Manchester 8d 212
Births Dec 1870
Mitchell John Edward Manchester 8d 178

Hi Janey
So sorry I have messed this up big time. I meant that I have the death certificate, not the birth, but I had found Josephs birth details and they matched with dates etc my dad had told me. I knew of the siblings also through the family telling me and that his father was John Mitchell. I did not know for certain that his mothers name was Charlotte Lyons but I found the details in the 1901 census as you did and it was a match with John Mitchell and the daughter Mary Mitchell and both their dates of birth. I presumed that Charlotte Lyons was his wife but could find no way of proving it without doubt. Josephs mothers name was not on the death certificate. As for John Mitchell I have never found another trace of him in any census that I could say for certain was him. I can find no death record either bit know that he died in the early 1900's (probably before 1910. Sorry to confuse you with my rattlings. I have bben looking for so long now ( and very disheartened) that i forget that you don't know the details as i do. I wish that GR had the 1910 census because i'm sure some answers would be in there. I don't want to join another group really. Again i apologise and thank you for your time & information.

I've checked the 1911 and nothing is coming to light. There is a Joseph in an orphanage in Blackburn but no siblings with him. There is a Charlotte, widow, rag sorter, boarding somewhere, but no children with her.

How sure are you that the family was from Manchester, cos there are not that many Mitchells there in 1911.

Deaths Jun 1909 (>99%)
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------
MITCHELL John Edward 39 Manchester 8d 139

So if this is him, the children are all born between 1898 and 1909/10, with Mary A being the eldest.

Thanks Madmeg, that actually does make some sense. I believe that John died and Charlotte became desitute and put the two boys into a poor/work house, although not in Blackburn, in Manchester.I know this bcause my dad remembers the eldest child Mary talking of walking to the orphanage or workhouse to pass food to her two brothers through the railings, so it was definately in Manchester. I believe that Charlotte kept her daughters with her though so cannot understand why there are no records at all. The plot thickens! I wonder if she married again, very quickly? Or if i could have the wrong name for the mother.
It does make sense that John died in 1909. His eldest was born in 1899 and the youngest roughly 1906. I can find no trace of the youngest at all, Jack.
This is a complete mystery and i've got a feeling i'll never get to the bottom of it. I know for certain that John Mitchell and his children were all born in Manchester. The children all stayed in Manchester until death except for Jack who moved away. He only came home to go to his mothers funeral in the 1930's and on the way back it is believed he either fell, or jumped from the train. As it is believed he had a wife and three or four children, i would like to find out more about him and his family, but there is nothing at all. I'll not give up though. Thank you very much for all your effort, it's very kind of you.

On the theory that every little bit could help:

Births Jun 1870
Lyons Charlotte Manchester 8d 146

i.e. a good match for Charlotte Mitchell in the censuses -- possibly born March so just turned 21, 31, etc. each census.


Name: Charlotte Mitchell
Death Registration Month/Year: 1937
Age at death (estimated): 67 = d.o.b. c1870
Registration district: Manchester North
Inferred County: Lancashire
Volume: 8d
Page: 467

?

If so, it would rule out a remarriage. Although she could have been cohabiting with someone in 1911 and using his surname.

Jack is more than likely John. There are three possible Johns, 1901, 1906 and 1907. Annie 1902.

I looked for a marriage of Charlotte before 1911, nothing. I guess she didn't remarry.

It might be worth getting the death cert of Charlotte that Janey has found to see if one of the children notified her death. By 1937 they were likely married. Do you know who any of them married? You must know who Joseph Mitchell married. Not that it will lead us to anything. But please tell us anyway, you never know.

But I can't find these children in 1911.

No dear, we don't give up yet.

Margaret

no sign of the family in Beyer street in 1911 census



you have stared another thread on the records office board which I have also responded on, it would have been helpful if you had referred to this thread as you only gave half the info.

Births Mar 1898 (>99%)
Mitchell Mary Alice Salford 8d 179

Deaths Jun 1937 (73%)
Mitchell Charlotte 67 Manchester N 8d 467

????
Deaths Jun 1937 (73%)

Mitchell John W 33 Middlesbro' 9d 651

Thank you for all your help everyone. i'm getting excited again about this. Thanks Janey and I think both the birth and the death sound correct to me. Her youngest son Jack came back from where he was living for the funeral and on the way home jumped or fell from the train taking him home. He had been very depressed after the death of his mother and he'd had the flu, so I am told. That was in 1937 also. That is all I know of Jack but my dad seems to think that he had married and had children but he doesn't know where he moved away to. I can find no death or birth details for him.
Joseph married Frances Ada Fletcher in 1932 in Manchester and had one son, Gordon Mitchell , born 1936.
Mary Mitchell married Baden Callaghan in 1929 and they had two sons Kenneth, born 1929 and Roy born 1934.
Ann (Annie) never married and according to my dad, always lived in the same house that the family had grown up in on Beyer Street until her death in 1973. I'm wondering if that may not be correct and he has the wrong address?
Madmeg I think you could be right about Annie born in 1902, although I thought maybe a little earlier, possibly 1900 because of the age gaps with the others . I have never found her birth details. Jack (or John) was either 1906 or 1907 as he was the youngest, and Joseph was born in 1904.
Now i'm almost certain about Charlottes death details i'll order the death cert and hopefully get some answers.
It certainly sounds as if she didn't remarry, she would have only been 39 when her husband died.
I'm dying to find out what happened between her husband dying and her own death, especially with the children. How sad that she couldn't care for them and possibly put the boys into an orphanage if that is correct. And what happened to the girls? They may have lived with other family members. I'll keep digging with renewed hope now. Thank you all again very much. Cathy

But Victoria seems to have found a death of John Mitchell that exactly ties in with the death of Charlotte.

I would certainly investigate that death further.

Madmeg thanks but I know for certain that John died thirty years before Charlotte in1909 not 1937, plus he was not in Middlesborough. He was only 39 when he died, so i can rule that one out.

Hi Cathy
I think the death Victoria posted for John 1937 is in reference to son Jack - supporting your fall from the train!

that's correct....don't forget that Jack is a nickname for John.

The John Mitchell who died June 1937 Middlesborough was 33 yrs old, this fits in with Jack/John dob.

Exactly ladies, the death is of Jack (John) Mitchell.

Of course !! Thank you, I wasn't thinking of the son, only the father. That matches perfectly. I've been looking for a needle in a haystack because I didn't know the place of death but that does fit. Thank you for all your hard work, I can work from there now. Thanks again.