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Hi Sue,

As you can probably tell, I have a real need to PROVE things before I will admit that they are true , and in the case of my own tree, add anyone to it until I am sure.

I have to say that in this case I am 99.9999999% sure that your grandfather John Hogan (registered John Kay), was actually born illigitimately to Sarah Ann Kay who later married Daniel Hogan.

John Kay's birth cert may, or may not name Daniel as father (it may have been left blank), but I feel certain that this John Kay became John Hogan and that this John Kay on 1891 census with his grandparents (Sarah Ann's parents) IS your grandfather.

Again, this is all proved to connect to the 1911 census family - everything fits! - again - this IS your Grandfather John Hogan

All I can say is that if this was 'my' tree and my possible relative, I would be happy to accept him as 'mine', and I don't do that lightly! I have been known to keep several generations on seperate trees for years until I found the 'proof' (even though I 'knew' I was right),and could add them on!! (I'm a stubborn little thing really - (tee hee).

Anyway, take time to look through and have a think - Feel free to ask again if things are not clear!

Dea x

Marriages Mar 1849 (>99%)
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------

****Boylan Mary Wigan 21 566

****Hogan Daniel Wigan 21 566

this is the start from ireland then mary remarries

Deaths Jun 1861
Hogan Daniel Easington 10a 197
......................................................................

Mary then re-marries (husband no 2 )

Marriages Dec 1866
Hogan Mary Easington 10a 533
INGLEBY Reuben Easington 10a 533

this is Daniel with sarah

HOGAN, DANIEL HEAD MARRIED M 49 COAL MINER HEWER DURHAM CASTLE EDEN HUTTEN HENRY
HOGAN, SARAH ANN WIFE MARRIED 24 F 44 WIGAN PARISH LANCS
HOGAN, JOHN SON SINGLE M 22 COAL MINER HEWER WIGAN PARISH LANCS
HOGAN, DANIEL SON M 5 SCOTLAND HAMILTON RESIDENT
FERRIS, JAMES BOARDER MARRIED M 24 COAL MINER PUTTER BELOW GROUND WINGATE CO DURHAM
FERRIS, HENRIETTA BOARDER MARRIED F 20 WEST HARTLEPOOL DURHAM
FERRIS, SIDNEY JAMES BOARDER M 2 HESLEDEN C/O DURHAM
FERRIS, LEONARD BOARDER M 6 MONTHS WEST HARTLEPOOL DURHAM


you found the marriage in scotland





this marriage is sarahs parents

Marriages Sep 1858 (>99%)
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------

Kay John Wigan 8c 43
Ryding Rachel Wigan 8c 43



then comes your grand father
John Kay/hogan born out of wedlock

Births Jun 1889
Kay John Wigan 8c 32

this is you first three generations
grandfather
g/grandfather
gg/grandfather on both sides

Oh boy big problems with the computer today, don't know how long i'll manage to stay here.!!

Thank you so much i wish i could repay you both in some way. You have both worked so hard .

Can i just ask a few questions Sorry !! I began to lose track. I promise to leave you alone then,

Is John Kay my grandfather John Hogan and is that him definatly on the census showing him born in Wigan ??

I'm going to write it all out and if you don't mind i'll let you see what i've done.

Absolutely agree Sablon - everything needed is on here now - we don't want to add any 'new info' now as it will only confuse!

Sue,

Try to do what I suggested the other day and list out all the 'proven' facts leading from yourself and going back to John Kay and then back again to Daniel (John's father) + mother Sarah Ann, then back again to Daniel Snrs. father - another Daniel + mother Mary.

A lot of it is 'pulled together' for you in various posts, especially from page 10 - page 13.

There is an awful lot to 'digest' but everything fits - If you need any further help, or there is anything you are not quite clear on, just come back and ask!!!

Thanks for the 'challenge' ! - I know Sablon and I have enjoyed working together with you on this - Best of luck in searching out the rest of your family!!

Keep in touch,

Dea x

yes ,i think your right Dea.so now Susan should get herself organized ,as her grandfather has been found, Susan can give a shout when she is ready,too much more at this stage might muddle things up.for her.
we have her John kay and his parents and both sets of Grandparents.
what do you think Dea?

Hi Sablon - Just quickly bringing this forward for you from page 10

Re Mary Hogan - she was born in Ireland c 1817 according to 1851 + 1861 Census:

1851 England Census
about Daniel Hogan
Name: Daniel Hogan
Age: 45
Estimated Birth Year: abt 1806
Relation: Head
Spouse's name: M
Gender: Male
Where born: Ireland

Civil parish: Wigan
Ecclesiastical parish: St Catherine
County/Island: Lancashire
Country: England

Street address:............... Army Lane

Occupation:

Condition as to marriage:

Disability: View Image

Registration district: Wigan
Sub-registration district: Wigan
ED, institution, or vessel: 1k
Neighbors: View others on page
Household schedule number: 122
Household Members: Name Age
Daniel Hogan 45 Chelsea Pensioner
M Hogan 34
E Hogan 27
M Hogan 10
Mary Boyle 7 step daug - Wigan
John Hogan 5 b Wigan
B Hogan 9 Mo b Wigan




Source Citation: Class: HO107; Piece: 2199; Folio: 310; Page: 27; GSU roll: 87208-87209.

.......................

1861 England Census
about Daniel Hagan
Name: Daniel Hagan
Age: 1
Estimated Birth Year: abt 1860
Relation: Son
Father's Name: Daniel
Mother's Name: Mary
Gender: Male
Where born: Monk Hesledon, Durham, England

Civil parish: Monk Hesledon
County/Island: Durham
Country: England

Street address:................. Castle Eden Colliery


Registration district: Easington
Sub-registration district: Easington
ED, institution, or vessel: 1
Neighbors: View others on page
Household schedule number: 238
Household Members: Name Age
Daniel Hagan 57 b Ireland Pensioner
Mary Hagan 42 b Ireland
Michael Hagan 20 b Ireland Coal miner
John Hagan 15 b Wigan Coal Miner
Mary Hagan 17 b Wigan
Ann Hagan 9 b Wigan
Thos Hagan 5 b Wigan
Daniel Hagan 1 b Durham (Monk Hesledon)



Source Citation: Class: RG9; Piece: 3751; Folio: 26; Page: 48; GSU roll: 543182.

.............

I had thought she had been married before to a Mr. Boyle/Boylan ??, but it now looks as though this was her maiden name so she would have been unmarried when she has daughter Mary 'Boyle' born in 1844.

Dea x

P.S. - Also on page 10 you will see details for Daniels death (1861?) and Mary's remarriage to Reuben Ingleby in 1866 + details from 1871 Census.

She would therefore have died an 'Ingleby' unless she got married, yet again, which I think is possible.

Dea x

Marriages Mar 1849 (>99%)
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------


Boylan Mary Wigan 21 566

Hogan Daniel Wigan 21 566


there we go Dea weeeeeeeeeeeeeeee
the marriage cert will give fathers name and where from
the birth won't be on bdm as i would think she was born about 1828/1830
But she should be single on 1841 census

Thank you Sablon - That will be the one - It is spelt Riding on Scottish site but it fits !!

Dea Xxx

P.S. - Isn't this exciting !! ???

Dea x

Marriages Sep 1858 (>99%)
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------

Kay John Wigan 8c 43
Ryding Rachel Wigan 8c 43

Hi all,

Sablon - Stay with us PLEASE - We have more to do and it was you who started this in the first place - If we hadn't BOTH become 'obsessed this would never have got sorted.

Well..... - Now for the Good News.........................

This IS the correct marriage !!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!

Image shows Daniel Hogan Coal Miner - father Daniel Hogan (Coal Miner - deceased)
mother Mary BOYLING (hard to read but we had 'Boyle or Boylan' already)

Sarah Ann Kay - father John Kay, Slater journeyman (correct!!)
mother Rachel Kay (nee Riding???? - again hard to read - needs more work!)

Witnesses Patrick Herbert + Mary Herbert !!

There you go ! - Sue's John was born as John Kay !!!!!!!!!

Can't do much till later (baby grandson to look after for the day!)

We need to work on those mothers maiden names and find the marriages but we can now get you that birth cert tto show to your half-brother, and probably much more.

Will be back as soon as I can.

WELL DONE ALL !!!!!!!

Dea Xxx

good luck susan and Dea,i keep popping in

Sorry - had to turn computer off for a while - HUGE storm - 'thunderbolts and lightening' (yeh - mama mia etc.... (sorry if you are not of the right age to appreciate that !!).

Anyway - pm is best, otherwise everyone will have access to your account!!

Dea x

Details on here or private message ??

Hi again,

That would be wonderful, if you don't mind doing it

I am really curious about this one.

Dea x

Well thats odd i sent a reply ages ago not its not shown up !!! here i go again its not as good as GRO it takes 20 days to process and then you add on posting time !!

but i am quite happy to give you my details so you can see the entry for yourself. They are so much more detailed than the English, its very faint but you may be able to get a better image than me. I only have 4 credits left in case you wanted to look at anything else but its free when you have viewed something once so you could look at marriage entry as many times as you like

Let me know and i'll send you the log in details

Fingers crossed Sue,

I DO hope I am not costing you money for nothing !!!!!!!

Dea x

I'm going into Scottish BMD now to try and find the certificate, (wish me luck i could be a while !!!) and see how i go about obtaining it.

I'll be back later

Dea Reading what you just put,it seems like your right,seeing the cert would be best,one way or another.
and a simple mistake with david as really Daniel is all it takes.

Hi Sue,

It's the one you found in Scotland for a Daniel marrying a Sarah Ann Kay!

If it's on Scotlandspeople, I think you actually download the cert, or the details, so it is instant ???

If this is the wrong Daniel then the above will not work but if this IS 'your' Daniel, then 'your' John fits with the John Kay birth ???

Dea x

P.S. - I DO hope I am not leading you astray here but this could be the 'key' to it all?

What do you think?

Dea x

Look what happens when i go way for a while!! my goodness ! i'm only here for a little while, i'm actually eating my dinner as i type! then back to work .

Dea which certificate would you like?, i really don't mind, the only down side is it takes a week to come through