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Hi Sablon and Dea.

The info i have is so limited i'm afraid. its a long complicated story but in short I have half brother also called John Hogan ! He lived in Redcar where my grandparents were, but did not really know them either. He knew when John Snr. died I did not know any of them at all.
So he knew grandfathers name John Hogan, grandmother Gertrude.

John Hogan Snr:
I worked back from death to work out year of birth and managed to find marriage certificate.

Found all my mum's siblings siblings bar 2, 1 of which Sablon found so just one missing now. It was assumed he was irish because he was a chatholic and Tatty boat was mentioned at some time.

Gertrude:
again all i have is marriage certificate and death certificate i have not been able to find birth certificate as i do not know where she was born.
I did find a Gertrude Shea in the 1901 census. but it says father Edward . ( american British subject) Mother Mary born Carnarvan and sister Nellie but had no proof this was her.

Sorry i can't give you anything definate to go on. Sue

Hi Susan,

On an earlier post, you mentioned the name Lang??

Was this a mistake, if not, where does this name fit in please?

Dea x

Probably a slip of the old brain sorry, that was my mum's married name and my maiden name.

Marriages Dec 1915 (>99%)
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Hogan Mary K McCarthy Swansea 11a 2418
McCarthy James Hogan Swansea 11a 2418

The district Swansea spans the boundaries of the counties of Glamorgan and West Glamorgan

this is the marriage which led me to the welsh family.
susan,you say that the witness on John Hogans marriage is
I or T Mccarthy ,could it be a J with the top crossed. if so then James could be his brother inlaw as you know we found a Mary Hogan in Glamorgan ,
i wonder if it would be worth your while,getting that marriage,to see if Mary's father is Daniel Hogan,
at this point,it is tempting.and they did marry in glamorgan.there might be some clues there.
strange ,but i can't find any children for them except this one which could be a missprint

Births Dec 1917 (>99%)
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Mcarthy Dennis Horgan Pontypridd 11a 946

Hi
The J in McCarthy does not look like the J in John Hogan or John Shea. The whole certificate seems to be written by the same person. Wish i could actually show it to you. But i'll go with the J and send for the marriage certificate tonight so it should be here Wed/Thurs next week, its always so frustrating having that wait !!

Thank you.

Susan,the signiture of Mccarthy would have been written by him only.the rest of the writing on the cert would have been by someone else,the witnesses would have to sign their own name,or put a x by the name if they didn't.

If you do send for the cert. put Daniel down as the father.of Mary,if it is wrong they won't send it and you should get half your money refunded.

Thanks will do that, if this is Daniel Hogans daughter do you think its getting close to a find ?? Still can't believe the Wales ( if its right) connection when i almost gave up, thinking if he was Irish i didn't stand a chance of finding anything
Are there any other certificates you need for cross reference?
Sue

well it might unlock somthing,you never know,if it turns out to be his daughter,there might just be a clue,and still possible that Daniel the father is irish,
then there are the witnesses on that marriage ,who knows,john might be one,That would be good,keep your fingers crossed ,Dea and i arn't finished yet,we could still find more,
Let's just wait and see before you waste your money,

Thanks again to you both, just a waiting game for now !!

ok.Susan,I am going to put together what we have found so far,this way it will keep the memory fresh and put the possible clues all together and if the cert is right or wrong we will know wether to illiminate Glamorgan

Marriages Jun 1918 (>99%)


HOGAN John Sowden Middlesbro 9d 1093
Sowden Gertrude Hogan Middlesbro' 9d 1093


1/ the witnesses to John Hogans Marriage to Gertrude Shea

? Mcarthy and H. ? Richardson


2/ the marriage of Hogan / Macarthy

Marriages Dec 1915 (>99%)
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Hogan Mary K McCarthy Swansea 11a 2418
McCarthy James Hogan Swansea 11a 2418

The district Swansea spans the boundaries of the counties of Glamorgan and West Glamorgan

which led me to Glamorgan for Marys birth and possible Family


Births Sep 1894 (>99%)
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Hogan Mary Merthyr T. 11a 620


there is also a birth for John Hogan same place

Births Dec 1890 (>99%)
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Hogan John Merthyr T. 11a 542

The district Merthyr T. is an alternative name for Merthyr Tydfil and it spans the boundaries of the counties of Breconshire, Glamorgan and Mid Glamorgan

and found this marriage could be there parents

Marriages Sep 1884 (>99%)
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Cannings George Merthyr T 11a 708
HOGAN Daniel Merthyr T. 11a 708
McCarthy Alice Merthyr Tydfil 11a 708
Watson Ellen Merthyr T. 11a 708

Then Dea found this

Marriages Mar 1906 (>99%)
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MARTIN Ethel Hannah Middlesbro' 9d 786
MAXWELL John Ernest Middlesbro' 9d 786
Richardson John Middlesbro' 9d 786
Shea Ellen Middlesbro' 9d 786

.....................

And there is a John Hogan on 1911 in Middlesbrough lodging with Joseph + Agnes Williams - Agnes would probably be his sister, though I am
not convinced he is 'Susan's John yet??

Marriages Dec 1907 (>99%)
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ALLITT Jane Middlesbro' 9d 1336
FULLER Robert Middlesbro' 9d 1336
HOGAN Agnes Middlesbro' 9d 1336
WILLIAMS Joseph Gill Middlesbro' 9d 1336


Births Dec 1889 (>99%)
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Shea Ellen Pontypridd 11a 451



and gertrude

Births Dec 1894 (>99%)
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Shea Gertrude Middlesbro' 9d 595

they could of moved to middlesbro before gertrude was born



just checked for ellen in middlesbro births Nothing,so it must be her in glamorgan


marriage for ellens parents and Gertrudes in glamorgan this is looking even more possible as gertrudes father is John Shea. notice on marriage elizabeth williams ???? I wonder if elizabeth williams is to do with Joseph williams and is johns uncle or perhaps they are johns cousins

Marriages Sep 1886 (>99%)
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CARPENTER Alice Pontypridd 11a 554
LITTLE Charles Pontypridd 11a 554
SHEA John Pontypridd 11a 554
Williams Elizabeth Pontypridd 11a 554

the marriage would go with the pontypridd birth


found this marriage also James Hogan maybe to a williams Now James could be Daniel Hogans Brother Daniel's marriage is in the same place,on page 5
i will bring it forward.
Ellen Williams could be Elizabeth Williams sister and elizabeth named her daughter after her,

Marriages Dec 1880 (>99%)
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Davies Walter Merthyr T. 11a 633
Evans Ann Merthyr T. 11a 633
Hogan James Merthyr Tydfil 11a 633
Williams Ellen Merthyr T 11a 633


Marriages Sep 1884 (>99%)
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Cannings George Merthyr T 11a 708
HOGAN Daniel Merthyr T. 11a 708
McCarthy Alice Merthyr Tydfil 11a 708
Watson Ellen Merthyr T. 11a 708


what is it with this family,,also Christopher Hogan maybe married to a williams same place

Marriages Dec 1887 (>99%)
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Beddoe Owen Merthyr T. 11a 846
DAVIES Hannah Jane Merthyr T. 11a 846
Hogan Christopher Merthyr T. 11a 846
WILLIAMS Elizabeth Merthyr T. 11a 846




there are loads of Joseph williams born in Merthyr Tydfil without a marriage cert/would be difficult to pin him down
but his name is Joseph Gill williams

then Dea found this

I believe I found him on a census and this would be his parent's marriage:

Marriages Dec 1882 (>99%)

Williams John Stourbridge 6c 297

***Gill Sarah Stourbridge 6c 297

Births Mar 1884

Williams Jo

SADLY


England & Wales, Death Index: 1984-2005

Name: Terence Hogan
Birth Date: 14 Jun 1928 <<<<<<<<<<<<
Death Registration Month/Year: May 2005
Age at death (estimated): 76
Registration district: Middlesbrough
Inferred County: Cleveland
Register number: A21A
District and Subdistrict: 348/1A
Entry number: 242



Does the date of birth match his birth certificate ?



REGARDS

Thank you Fairthorn, Birth date is the same. Thats so sad. I'll send for death certificate may give a clue to where he was living and maybe family??.

Sue.

Thank you also Sablon for condensing the info found so far, its made it easier to understand. Just can't wait for certificate to arrive!!

Draaattt !!!!!!

Been working on this all day !! - Found LOTS more but getting no further !!

Thanks for the 'condensing of info' Sablon - It helps, but we need a 'spark' to connect here.

Perhaps the certs will bring something?

Dea x

I'm not sure Sablon.

On the marriage cert in 1918 - Gertrude's father John is marked as deceased but John's father Daniel is not!! - Therefore I conclude that he is still alive??? - I am sure, having marked one father deceased, they would have marked the other the same if he had been dead??

What makes you think he was dead by then?

I have a possible death for him in 1934 in Rotherham ?

Dea x

I thought Daniel was deceased ,my mistake having a bad hair day hahah
i will take that off

possible death for John shea in


Deaths Jun 1914 (>99%)
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Shea John 50 Merthyr T. 11a 786

making birth c 1864

we will have to wait and see if he was deceased on ellens marriage cert.But not yet,need to sought the Hogans first

Hi Sablon & Dea
at last the long awaited mariage certificate has arrived. I hope it has the info you were waiting for.

Dec 20th 1915 Roman Catholic Chapel Rutland Place in the district of Swansea.

James McCarthy 24 yrs. Bachelor. Royal Canadian Horse Artillery Brigade( then writing gets too small to read).

Residence Nazarath House Souhend on Sea. Father's name and profession Blank.

Mary Kate Hogan. 18yrs. Spinster. Housemaid(Domestic Servant).

Stamford House Newton Oystermouth. Father John Hogan (deceased)
Agricultral Labourer.

Witnesses. Boyd Shaddick, Hermine Shaddick , Malita Shaddick

(Father and occupation are not the same as on John Hogan's marriage certificate ?? if she is John's sister.)

Sue

sue ,thats the wrong father,His father was Daniel Hogan,so mary can't be johns Brother,It could be a cousin though.

Thats just what i thought as soon as i saw it. Oh well never mind it was worth the try,

Sue

there are 3 marriages around that time for John in glamorgan so Daniel and marys father could be related

Marriages Mar 1881 (>99%)
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HOGAN John Edward Cardiff 11a 343

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Marriages Dec 1887 (>99%)
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Hogan John James Pontypridd 11a 664

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Marriages Dec 1894 (>99%)
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Hogan John Cardiff 11a 595