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Dolly,

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Hello Jaqueline,saw your message & was surprised when i saw the whitmarsh names,.Have lived all my life in Miall road Sydenham Born 1928 no 18 still live in Miall but now called Walk not Road.I am 84 but remember such a lot
i can recalla Jackie &Stanley think they lived along Bell Green near Barber shop.These maybe related but not sure of ages stanmaybe my age so it would be back .Would love to hear from you to maybe sort more info.
Dolly Gray (nee Perks)
ps still trying for info on my Grandmother i have been searching about 10 years on Ancestry. Bye.

Hi again,

- I will look properly in the morning when I am awake !!

Dea x

Hi Dea
Also you said you had some details for Henry 1893 (John's brother)
Just wondered if that was his and Carolines children.
Maybe they had a son called Jack and that is where the Jack came from.
Thanks
Jacqui

Hi
Sorry have been working then I got my mum round to go through it all with me.
Right here goes.
My nanna is Betty Whitmarsh 1923 she has one brother John 1918 and 5 sisters Elizabeth, Doris, Irene, Joyce and Doreen.
There parents were John Whitmarsh (1891) and Elizabeth Flint (1891) married 4 sep 1910.
John has a brother who was thought to be Jack but then changed to Harry and was married to a Carrie.

There father as on John's marriage cert was also John (1866) and we did not know who his first wife was but the second was a Mrs Bird. (I have the marriage cart for this) It was thought that Mrs Bird's daughter married John's (1891) brother and you found that marriage for Henry and Caroline Bird. So that makes it seem that the Jack/Harry is actually the Henry we have been seeing.

On John's (1866) marriage cert to Mrs Bird his father is Henry and the address is 20 Bell Green.

For John (1866) we have found a marriage to Agnes Randall who was married before to William Randall. She was born Wakerley. She had 5 children to him and pregnant with 6th when he died. She then married a John Whitmarsh and had John and Henry. Her 6th child lived with them she was little Agnes.

My Nanna still needs convincing that her grandad JOhn (1866) did marry this Agnes as she does not remember anything about her being married before and having other children.

I also need to prove that her dad's (JOhn 1891) brother was Henry.

I think that I need to order the certs for John and Agnes marriage and hope that shows something. I think I will also get the marriage cert for Henry and Caroline Bird .

My mum said that John (1866) lived most of his life at 20 Bell Green, Sydenham well what she remembers and that was his address when he marrried Mrs Bird in 1923. She remembers my Nanna living there at some point so John and his brother could have been born there. Just realised the birth cert I have for John the address is 6 Miall Road so maybe I should get the birth cert for Henry and see what address that comes up with!

I hope that makes sense to you.
What do you think?
Jacqui

Hi,

I'm back now - just taken grand-daughter home so I'm a little bit 'brain dead' - she is 4, going on 20 (If you know what I mean!) - I also have a 9 month old grandson (Happy to tell you more about us all but more appropriate by pm).

Anyway, we have to be careful here as all these Whitmarshes are intermingled, they have all given their children the same names, all live close by and have very often married into the same families (siblings or children etc!!).

I am reading through the thread again and the notes I have made - Could you help by giving me a quick update of which bit you need proof of next?

We don't want to 'mess things up' by going off on a tangent now!

Dea x

oh wow
looks like it is Henry after all then.
might be able to get the evidence i need, i am excited.
have a lovely day.
you are a grandmother, nice to know something about you.
i feel like i know you but i do not if you know what i mean.
have a nice day.
jacqui

AAhh !!

I have that marriage already:

Marriages Jun 1915

Bird Caroline Whitmarsh Lewisham 1d 2829
Whitmarsh Henry G Bird Lewisham 1d 2829

I have some details on Henry also but I am afraid they will have to wait until later
- It is 'grand-daughter day' on a Friday and she is about to arrive!

Speak later,

Dea x

Hi Dea

My aunt has come back to me after speaking to my Nanna and her sister. Her sister said that she remembers John Whitmarsh's brother as Harry and not Jack as my Nanna thought. (My Nanna said I should have started this a year ago when she remembered more, wish I had)

She did say that she thougth that he was married to Carrie Bird(the daughter of Jane Elizabeth Bird, second wife of John Whitmarsh).

On the marriage cert for John and Jane her father was Charles Thorne and he was deceased. I can not find her first marriage or a census with them on to see if they did have a child called Carrie.

John's brother lived in Sydenham and then moved to Forrest Hill. They do not remember him as a traveller but are sure his wife was Carrie.

Not sure if any of this will help at all.

Thank you
Jacqui

I will speak to my Aunt and let you know what she says.
Thank you
Jacqui

Hi, - Sorry, I HAD to do some shopping !!

I know you can't interrogate your nanna but, when appropriate, could you find out what she knows about her uncle 'Jack' ?

Whether he 'travelled around' a lot with his work?

If he had any connection to Gloucestershire, Bedfordshire (Apthill), or to the name 'Turner' ??

In the meanwhile I will continue to 'dig around'

Dea x

P.S. - It seems a little strange to have a John with a brother Jack as 'Jack' was usually (though NOT always) an alternative for John and there wouldn't normally be 2 brothers both called John. (Although, again, I did come across one family with about 12 children and all the boys were given the same first name, as were all the girls - This IS very unusual though !!)

Dea x

I have just looked on the 1911 census and John and Elizabeth with their first child Elizabeth lived 70 Miall Road.
Little Elizabeth's middle names were Agnes Ellen. Was his mother Agnes and she was named after him.
My Nanna is so sure that her father, John, only had one brother.

John Whitmarsh age 19 Bachelor Brick layer? addres 50 Miall Road father John Whitmarsh Brick think it might be layer but same as John Junior.
Elizabeth Flint age 19 spinster address 4 Pelingue Road father William Flint Leather finisher.
The whitnesses were Ellen May Flint and it says this is the mark of John Whitmarsh.
They were married in Sydenham 04/09.1910

Can you give me ALL the details from John's wedding cert to Elizabeth please - in cluding witnesses, ages, occupations, fathers, addresses etc..

Dea x

Yes that is def right.
Thank you so much.
Got to go out this morning but will be back for lunch.

So,

The John with children Elizabeth, Doris, Irene and Joyce IS the correct one then !!

I will work from there.

Dea x

Yes she thinks it is the wrong one.
She said John was born 13/04/1891 in Sydenham. The birth cert that came for the John with mother as Agnes and father John had birth as 20/04/1891. She said John only had 1 brother called Jack but I have not found a Jack anywhere so that was prob his nickname.
John married Elizabeth Flint and I have there marriage cert, his father was John Whitmarsh and at that time the address was 50 Miall Road.
I am wondering if to order the birth cert for Henry Whitmarsh 1893 (brother of the John we have) to see if his birth was 13/04/1893 and there birth dates could have just got mixed up.
Yes they were his children plus a few more. My Nanna is Betty.

O.K. - Let's work backwards again !!!

Is the John Jnr she thinks we have wrong the one born in 1891?

Did he have children - Elizabeth, Doris, Irene and Joyce?

Dea x

Thank you so much. I am so grateful for all your help.
Jacqui

1911 census shows these Whitmarsh's living at Bell Green with John born c 1891:
(Not necessarily all in the same household !!)


WHITMARSH
Last names Algorithm Exact
District Lewisham
Residence BELL GREEN
Other person last names WHITMARSH
Other person last names Algorithm Exact
Other person first names JOHN
Other person first names Algorithm Exact


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Schedule type Last names First names Sex Birth year Age in 1911 District / other County / other Transcript Original page
HOUSEHOLD WHITMARSH AGNES ROSE F 1906 5 Lewisham London
HOUSEHOLD WHITMARSH ELDA F 1908 3 Lewisham London
HOUSEHOLD WHITMARSH ELIZA F 1873 38 Lewisham London
HOUSEHOLD WHITMARSH ELIZABETH AGNES ELLEN F 1911 2 MONTHS Lewisham London
HOUSEHOLD WHITMARSH ELIZABETH SARAH F 1891 20 Lewisham London
HOUSEHOLD WHITMARSH ELSIE E F 1904 7 Lewisham London
HOUSEHOLD WHITMARSH HENRY M 1861 50 Lewisham London
HOUSEHOLD WHITMARSH HENRY M 1897 14 Lewisham London
HOUSEHOLD WHITMARSH WILLIAM M 1902 9 Lewisham London
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I will re-read the thread and my notes and come back to you.

Dea x