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a further continuation from the above as follows:
as noted above from the marriage c 1920 of Florence Bailey & Thomas Street there appears to have been two children
1. Irene Sep 1/4 1920 8a 202
2. Florence Jun 1/4 1922 8a 169

From Florence/Thomas and Gertrude/Edmund the four children noted would all have been the same generation as my Dad and so their children would be same generation as me and half cousins. Any one out there with any knowledge?

continuing the story from above, Gertrude and Edmund had two children, Nellie b 1909 and Edmund b 1911. Nellie was born same year as my Dadand edmund two years later. As they were cousins did they ever meet? At that age they would not actually have remembered and are probably both decesed by now but there may be a family story. Are there any children of Nellie or Edmund around, 'cos if there are we may be ab out the same age and half cousins?

I have moved on and not having looked for Annie Hedworth illegitimate(?) daughter Gertrude before but have now found she possibly married an Edmund MORRIS(!) in 1907. There is an Edmund b 1876 registered in Nantwich 8a-344 and married in December 1/4 1907 registered Nantwich 8a-629.
With Gertrude being illegitimate and married two years before her half sister Florence, having an illegitimate baby (my Dad?) this must have struck a very emotional chord!
MORRIS, as explained above is my name and was the name of the family that Dad grew up with in London, but James Gray Morris was born in 1871 in Swansea, but could he and Edmund (born in Crewe) have been cousins? Edmund was an engine fitter, the Bailey's were on the Railways and James was a self employed (Journeyman) printer.
Can all who look at this thread have a think about this please?

Hi David
I'm sure others would agree, given your information above, the information I sent you earlier (will copy and paste below), and the fact you have eliminated most other Florence's around Crewe, I would strongly suggest you start plugging in the names of the relevant Bailey/Hedworth/Street families into your GR tree.

It will make it much easier for you to search for other possible connections, as well as, for them to find you! You will have to find a way so you don't lose the tree info. you have on your dad's adoptive Morris family.

I hope it's ok to post a link on here as this might help give you an overview of Florence Adelaide Bailey's ancestors which of course you'd want to verify via GR.
http://www.shauntaylor.co.uk/genealogy/getperson.php?personID=I23049&tree=golding

Cheers!
Carole

**********************

Relevant families living on West Street, Monks Coppenhall/Crewe, Cheshire which show it is extremely likely that the mother of Albert Bailey, b. Sept. 22, 1909, 59 Samuel Street, was indeed Florence Adelaide Bailey b. 1886, Crewe:



1891: Florence’s maternal grandparents William Hedworth (1835-1905) b. Durham and Jane nee Allen, b. Scotland (1835-1908) lived at 373 West Street. Also living there was Florence’s half-sister Gertrude b. 1880 to Annie Hedworth (1862-1901) who married George Henry Bailey in 1881 (Florence Adelaide Bailey’s parents).



Only 9 houses away: 1891, 1901 and sometime prior to 1909: James Banks, iron moulder b. 1846, Shropshire, and his wife Elizabeth, b. 1862 and family lived at 391 West Street…then moving to 59 Samuel Street, where your Albert Bailey was b. Sept. 22, 1909.



1891-1911 and onwards: Florence’s father George Henry Bailey (1859-1931), b. Shropshire and his family lived at 457 West Street. Florence Adelaide Bailey (1886-1961) was living there on the 1891, 1901 census. Florence’s mother Annie died in 1900 and in 1901 George secondly married Margaret nee Griffiths, b. 1868, Denbigshire, Wales. Of interest may be the fact that in 1891, she worked as a domestic for a clergyman (Ch. Of England) at the Heath Vicarage, Sandbach, Cheshire. Possibly Margaret had connections for Albert Bailey’s adoption? A contact on another site shows that Margaret’s mother Jane died Feb. 18, 1922 at 457 West Street, Crewe.



1901: Florence’s maternal aunt Elizabeth Roberts nee Hedworth (b. 1866, Crewe) and her family lived at 481 West Street, next door to her married uncle John W. Hedworth.



1901, 1911: In 1901, Florence’s maternal uncle John W. Hedworth (b. 1873, Crewe) lived at 479 West Street with his family, next door to her aunt Elizabeth. In 1911, he lived at 445 West Street.



David, given that Florence Adelaide Bailey married Thomas Street, after WW1, in the March Q, 1920 Stockport 8a 14; and her sister Sarah Jane Bailey likely married Harry Street (brother of Thomas), in the Sept Q, 1914 Stockport 8a 285… I would suggest you go to the Free BMD site and look up all the births with the last name “Street” and mother’s name “Bailey” for all of Cheshire between 1914 and approx. 1932. You should see 2 children b. prior to 1920, in Stockport which would likely be the children of Sarah Jane. One girl b. Sept. Q 1820, Stockport (could be either child of Sarah Jane or Florence). Then you should see 2 children b. in June 1922, in Stockport, in the same volume (8a) but on "different pages". Quite likely one of them would be Florence’s child, and the other, Sarah Jane’s child. If you would like to differentiate them, and also know Florence’s address at that time I would order both of those certificates. Then you will see another child of ? b. 1924, and another of ? b. 1926 (whom I believe died in 2003, according to another source.) Note: I did not want to mention the names of the Street/Bailey children on here as they may still be alive.



Then I would suggest you start looking for people searching for those children via Genes Reunited, other genealogy sites, and then on google, etc. to see if they know about Florence’s past. You might be able to make more connections in the way of witnesses, addresses, if you order the marriage cert. and death cert. for Florence and some b/m/d certs. for her other possible children. Finally, you might want to do the same kind of search for Florence’s brother George W. (Wallace?) Bailey who likely married Annie Street in the Sept. Q 1920, Stockport 8a 27. Three siblings marrying three other siblings was quite interesting. Someone is bound to know something about your dilemma. J



Carole

A quick note to EvieBeavie - sorry and yes these do match what you told me in 2009, just never got around to doing much more until recently!

Further to all of the above and with many thanks to all who have responded I have now become even more certain that I have found the correct Florence Bailey but still need to nail down the last few items to prove conclusively that she is the right person. In order to do this I need to somehow find somebody who can actually say “Yes, Florence was my ????? and she certainly had a baby out of wedlock before meeting ????? and marrying”.
So therefore I am asking for anybody involved with the following families to get back to me if anything comes up that may provide the above answer. Carole, you are exempt here of course!
George H Bailey b 1859 Salop Old Park Cheshire, at home in 457 West St in 1901 census, occupation Stationary Engine Driver
Annie Bailey (nee Hedworth) his wife b 1862 Cumberland Carlisle, at home in 457 West St in 1891 census. In the 1901 census Annie was not recorded but in 1911 census George has a 2nd wife recorded as Margaret (married 9 years).
First married Annie around 1881. Annie may have had an illegitimate daughter Gertrude before marrying George, Gertrude does not appear in the 1891/1901/1911 census as Bailey.
William H, a son b 1882 Crewe Cheshire, at home in 457 West St in 1901 census, occupation Engine Fitter.
Samuel H, a son b 1885 Crewe Cheshire at home in 457 West St in 1901 census, occupation Tinsmith.
Florence A, a daughter b 1886 Crewe Cheshire (my Grandmother??), at home in 457 West St in 1901 census and a domestic servant with George Hough and Eliza Hough (married ? years, having had 7 children born alive of which 3 had died by 1911 census), at 43 Bury Street Stockport Cheshire. George is described as having “Private Means” under occupation. I am advised that Florence married a Thomas Street in 1920 and died in around 1961 in Stockport.
Annie M, a daughter b 1889 Crewe Cheshire, at home in 457 West St in 1901 census.
Sarah Jane, a daughter b 1891 Crewe Cheshire, at home in 457 West St in 1901 census and a domestic servant with J Keen McMyn and Mirtle May McMyn (married 2 years) at “Fordham” Bramhall Cheshire in 1911 census. J Keen is described as Fire Engineer under occupation. I am advised Sarah, possibly, died in Stockport in 1958 having married Harry Street in 1914, being a brother to Annie and Thomas Street.
Frances E, a daughter b 1893 Crewe Cheshire, at home in 457 West St in 1901 census and a domestic servant with Alfred McMichael and Cecile Marion McMichael (married 13 years) with children Marguerite, Frederick and Cecile at “Thornhill” Bramhall Cheshire in 1911 census. Alfred is described as Printer and Stationer under occupation. See reference to James Gray Morris, also a printer.
George W, a son born 1894 Crewe Cheshire, at home in 457 West St in 1901 census. Possibly married an Annie Street in 1920, Annie being a sister of Thomas and Harry Street.

My Father Albert Bailey was born to a Florence Bailey (the Florence Bailey above?) on 22 September 1909 at 59 Samuel Street Monks Coppenhall Crewe, registered in Nantwich Registration District, Sub District Crewe in the county of Chester on 6 October 1909 by Florence, stating Mother and 59 Samuel Street as informant and residence. She is not there in 1911 census (see above). In 1911 census 59 Samuel Street has James and Elizabeth Banks with daughter Ellen Olive 20 years old. Florence was 23/24 at this point. I have voting register information noting James Banks at 59 in 1909 along with a William Stanier. Could Elizabeth have been a midwife? Were Florence and Ellen friends? (Samuel and West Street were only yards apart, West Street is still there but now a major road without any houses).
My Father was brought up by James Gray Morris b 21 February 1871 in Swansea South Wales and Eliza Miriam Morris (nee Hayward) b 25 November 1876 in 11 Chapel Place Chelsea London. Both appear in the 1911 census at 18 Princess Street London (married 6 years). All birth and marriage dates are in line with certificates. James is described as a Stereotyper Print under occupation. James died in 1922 and Eliza in 1972, living in 18 Princess Street for most of the time where I visited regularly until moved out by the council a few years before her death.
Dad does not appear on the 1911 census in Crewe or London.
Unless I am missing something vital, unless somebody can state “Yes, Florence was my ????? and she certainly had a baby out of wedlock before meeting ????? and marrying”, or maybe she never married and was somebody's maiden great aunt, I can get no further as nothing else is recorded and formal adoption did not exist in those days so there is no record of how Dad got to London or who his Father was.

David

MORRIS, James Gray Head Married M 40 1871 Sterotyper News Swansea Wales
MORRIS, Eliza Wife Married6 years F 33 1878 London Brompton

Correct - these were my adoptive grandparents, James died in 1922 so never knew him, Eliza died in 1972 so knew her well.

The Margeret Gray is, like you say, a coincidence, James was Morris (good Welsh valley name!)and had only a sister Alice.

The "look at other trees" is working and throwing up lots more leads - thanks for that - none of them working yet but it all takes time! Searched for Morris/Bailey links - found none yet.

Thanks for the help.

Is this Margaret Gray at 18 Princess Street any connection to James?

GRAY, Margaret Head Married 9 years F 32 1879 Skirt Ironer St Giles Broomsbury
GRAY, Margaret Daughter Single F 8 1903 London
DALEY, Ellen Mother Widow F 75 1836 Ireland

RG number: RG14 Piece: 1776
Reference: RG14PN1776 RG78PN63 RD23 SD3 ED4 SN490
Registration District: Southwark
Sub District: St George the Martyr West
Enumeration District: 4
Parish: Southwark St George the Martyr

Address: 18 Princess St Southwark County: London

No, just seems a complete coincidence they're in the same building:

MORRIS, James Gray Head Married M 40 1871 Sterotyper News Swansea Wales
MORRIS, Eliza Wife Married6 years F 33 1878 London Brompton

David, for the search bit just go to the top right where it says Search with a spyglass next to it. that fetches a dropdown where it lists "Search All Trees", just follow what it says to do.

Just so I can get the picture right - Eliza was Hayward and then she married a Morris. Did she then live with James Gray, or did they marry? Only reason I'm asking is that sometimes if we track the individuals forwards and backwards then it might, just might, point us to Florence somewhere.

Or should I be reading it that his full name was James Gray Morris and he married Eliza Hayward?

Done all that and have got a long way in every direction - except Florence Bailey, even contacting others as you note I get nowhere! Done the census thing and even trying to find James Banks descendants (he was there in 1909 as well) according to the Voting Register, along with a William Stanier who also appears not to have any descendants (on GR anyway!). Dad effectively disappears after being born but I know for a fact that he was living in 18 Princess Street SE London in 1922 as he remembered his "Dad"dying when he was 12 and I have a picture of him with Jim in 1912 and Jim lived there then!

However a long shot I will admit but pitching my Grandmum at between 13(?) and 33(?) in 1909 I get 37 Florences in Cheshire. However she couls be one of these or maybe not, like map readingb you need three points of reference, I have one only. I am/have been in touch with the contemporaries of Eliza, indeed have spoken with people who knew her and are related to her maiden name of Hayward but nothing surfaces. Similar reaction with the Morris name of James Gray Morris from Swansea. Indeed I remember a story from Dad regarding 1946 when he & Mum went to visit Morris relatives in Swansea and they said "come back tomorrow and we will get more familyn here" and next day nobody was in!

So - where next? The suggestion of looking at other trees is an idea, if I am right in how to do so then I will certainly give that a go - thanks.



Regards
David Morris (who's Dad was Albert Bailey born in 1909 in Crewe!)

David, it doesn't really work that way!

What you need to do is search trees for the people you're looking for and then make contact with any owners that have them.

Anyhow, it took you long enough to come back and acknowledge what people had posted for you :-)

EDIT: I've checked 59 Samuel Street on the 1911 and it was a family called Banks living there. I'm sure you've already established by now that it wasn't him in Monks Coppenhall on the 1911.

I presume you've thoroughly researched any possible connection between Florence Bailey and James Gray/Eliza Morris?

Back on the treadmill and note no responses. Does nobody with the surname Bailey ever read GR? :-(

A GR member has these two Streets in her tree:

Harry 1889 Cheadle Bowdon Cheshire
Thomas 1880 Cheadle Bowdon Cheshire

- but no Florence or Sarah Bailey. Could be worth a query though.


David?

'My' Florence A Bailey:

Births Sep 1886
Bailey Florence Adelaide Nantwich 8a 359


A possible marriage - matches the 1911 census record:

Marriages Mar 1920
Bailey Florence A Street Stockport 8a 14
Street Thomas Bailey Stockport 8a 14


There are 7 Street-Bailey births in Stockport 1915 to 1926, so far transcribed.

Since there are two in Jun Q 1922, on different pages, it seems there were two Street-Bailey couples at least.

Heh. Hard to tell who the Bailey was, though:

Marriages Sep 1914
Bailey Emma Prince Stockport 8a 284
Bailey Sarah J Street Stockport 8a 284
Prince Albert Bailey Stockport 8a 284
Street Harry Bailey Stockport 8a 284


-- although 'my' Florence did have a sister named Sarah J.

1911 search:-
First names ALBERT
Last names BAILEY
Birth Year 1909
Birth Place CREWE
County Cheshire
Residence MONKS COPPENHALL

only one came up:-
HOUSEHOLD BAILEY ALBERT M 1908 3 Nantwich Cheshire

but Florence is not living in the same house.

You say that he was brought up by James Gray and Eliza Morris in SE London, but in 1911 he is still living in Cheshire, so could be worth a look to see who he is living with in 1911. Could be his grandparents, or another relative, which will help find which Florence is the correct one!

1911 - on search for born in Crewe:

BAILEY FLORENCE 1887 24 Stockport Cheshire


Unfortunately there are more than a page of Baileys in Stockport living with a Florence Bailey, so to sort out who was in her household, you'd need to pay to view.

Have you discounted this one??

1901

Name: Florence A Bailey
Age: 13
Estimated Birth Year: abt 1888
Relation: Daughter
Father's Name: Geo H
Gender: Female
Where born: Crewe, Cheshire, England

>> Civil Parish: Coppenhall Monks

Geo H Bailey 42
William H Bailey 19
Samuel H Bailey 16
Florence A Bailey 13
Ann M Bailey 12
Sarah J Bailey 10
Frances E Bailey 8
George W Bailey 7


In 1909 she would have been about 21.

Have you checked the address your father was born in the 1911 census. Florence may still be living there. Irene

I am trying to find my natural grandmother Florence Bailey who gave birth to my father Albert on 22 September 1909 in 59 Samuel Street, Monks Coppenhall, Crewe, England. There is no fathers name on my fathers BC and he was bought up by James Gray and Eliza Morris in SE London from around 1911. I knew Eliza (nee Hayward) well until her death in 1972 but neither her nor my father ever spoke of Florence. I am in touch via GR with Haywards who knew/knew of Eliza and of James and my father but nothing of Florence. Choices I have identified to date for a number of Florence's around the correct age/locale are:

Born 1879 - Cheadle Hulme - living in Street Lane @ 1881 census - father John.
Born 13/02/1881 - Wybunbury, Cheshire, England - parents William and Mary Bailey
Born 20/06/1891 - Stockport, Cheshire, England - parents Edward Bailey and Sarah Jones(?) - died 30/12/1920.
Born 02/12/1880 - Sheffield, Yorkshire, England - parents Thomas and Mary Ann Bailey

Does any of this ring bells with anybody out there? If it does then please get back to me as it is driving me crazy being stuck here at 1909 when I have Hayward, Morris and my Maternal details of Gridley back to, in the best case, 1600 !!!!!!!!!!!

David Morris