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So while I was gone, some GR elf seems to have kindly eliminated the thread I had on this subject - my grx3 grandfather.

>> Not looking for help specifically this time either, just getting some info on the BARNARD surname board.


I'd been trying to find - and am still trying to find - Richard's wife. I know who his son Richard Jr. was, and identified Richard Sr. in censuses by his occupation (as stated on Richard Jr.'s marriage certificate). Actually, a distant half-cousin (not related to this line of mine) kindly found him in the 1851 for me a couple of years ago, in the workhouse in Mere:

Name: Richard Barnard
Age: 61
Estimated Birth Year: abt 1790
Where born: Mere, Wiltshire, England
Civil Parish: Mere
Occupation: gold beater
Condition as to marriage: married

He is recorded as widowed in 1861, still in the workhouse, and died in 1869.

He was baptised Richard Bernard in Mere in 1795. His parents and two older siblings were removed from Dorset back to Mere under the Poor Law in 1791. The older siblings were Ann, born 1785 Mere, and Thomas, born c1790?.

*Editing July 2010 --
At the family search pilot thing, found the death of Thomas, father Benjamin Bernard, 13 Oct 1792, Mere. I shall now stop searching randomly for him in censuses etc. (There was also child Elizabeth born and died shortly after the parents' marriage.)*


So when I posted the thread that GR saw fit, for reasons unknown, to delete in my absence, I was looking for the wife he supposedly had in 1851, thinking she would be my grx3 grandmother whom I have never identified.

Well, what happened, from that now-deceased thread, is that GR member Michael D. pm-ed me with a marriage that had to be my Richard:

02/09/1839
BERNARD RICHARD CASTLE
ANNE RAE/FR5975
EdinburghEDINBURGH CITY/MIDLOTHIAN


I subsequently got the details from ScotlandsPeople:

Bernard
Edinburgh 2nd September 1839.
(Proclaimed --- 1st September 1839. ---.)
Richard Castle Bernard, Gold-beater, residing No. 8 Grass-market, New - Greyfriars' Parish, and Anne Rae, residing same place and parish, daughter of the late Henry Rae, Carrier, ______
have been three times Proclaimed in order to Marriage in the Parish Church of ------ New - Greyfriars' ---- and no objections have been offered.
Married at Edinburgh on the 2nd day of September 1839 by the Rev. J.J. Wood, Minister of New - Greyfriars'.


Scotland?? What the heck was my Richard Sr, born in Mere, died in Mere, but apparently had at least one child in Bristol, doing in Scotland? But it had to be him -- because Richard Sr.'s mother's name was Castle.

County Wiltshire
Place Mere
Church St Michael the Archangel
MarriageDate 18 Jul 1781
GroomForename Benjamin
GroomSurname BARNARD (otp)
BrideForename Mary
BrideSurname CASTLE (otp)

(As I mentioned ... all the searching I'd done, trying to filter out all the Barnard Castle and Barnard College results - and there I am, with Barnard-Castles. Sigh.)


So I went back to the drawing board, and instead of searching in my open tabs for the English censuses, I (duh) went to the full UK censuses. And there he was in 1841:

Name: Richard Barnard
Age: 37
Estimated Birth Year: abt 1804
Where born: Lanarkshire, England
(who knows what mistranscription Ancestry has given us - but actually there are a load of individuals with birthplace "Lanarkshire, England" at "Rutherglen Loan N 64" in 1841)

Civil Parish: Gorbals
County: Lanarkshire
Address: Rutherglen Loan N 64
>> Occupation: Gold Beater

Richard Barnard 37
Alexander McDougall 4
James McDougall 6
John McDougall 53 (possibly Inn Keeper)
Margaret McDougall 35
Margaret McDougall 1
Isabella Young 20


So this is Richard Sr.'s Scottish wife:

04/02/1795
RAE ANNE
father HENRY RAE
Glamis/ANGUS

So it seems quite doubtful that they had children, having married when she was 44ish.


Anne Barnard died in 1858. I can't find her in the 1841 or 1851 census. Her death:

1858
BARNARD ANN
mother's surname: NICOL
other surnames: RAE
age 53
RUTHERGLEN GLASGOW CITY/LANARK

Except ... the names match, but the DOB doesn't ...
(So I may have got the wrong birth - and if she was born in 1806ish, they might actually have had children.)


So anyhow, I'm just sticking this back on the board in case anyone related happens by some day. I still want to know who Richard Sr's first wife (Mere? Bristol?) was, and whether Richard Jr had any siblings!


editing to add some info

Have been in contact (18 April) with a Rae family member who confirms that he has the same info re marriage of Anne Rae and Richard Castle Bernard, i.e. as being Anne Rae daughter of his Henry Rae, as above.

I revisited the death certificate, and Anne Barnard who died 1858 was the wife of a gold beater -- and husband Richard Barnard (signed X) was present at the registration of the death. So that's them - and he was apparently mobile during that time.

The Rae family member has no other info e.g. about the possibility of Barnard-Rae children or about Richard Sr.

This will take some time to wade through and digest,I may be gone some time.
viv

Viv ... I was kidding ... ;)

But hey, if you want to show off, don't let me stop you!

I want my grx3 grandmother -- the only one of the lot of my grx3 grandparents I haven't managed to identify at least partially!


Related threads of mine, btw:

http://www.genesreunited.co.uk/boards.asp?wci=thread&tk=1080472

http://www.genesreunited.co.uk/boards.asp?wci=thread&tk=949088

And no -- these Barnards were not travelers/Roma/gypsies!

They seem to have been settled in Mere for quite some time up to about 1800, other than the ones who seem to have left the Mere area in the mid-late 1600s to settle Martha's Vineyard on the US east coast.

Thank Evans for that
.WHEW,wipes my brow.
I am off to play with the Neighbours and cook/es then.
Got the MC cert today and boy what a minefield the cook/es are.

I'm taking another shot at this, if anyone is bored.

I've been messing around with an Ann Jones who I suspect of being my Richard c1795's sister (the only surviving sib -- Elizabeth 1782 was not with the family in 1791, Thomas c1790 died as noted in edit in my first post).

On 24 Jul 1785 (born –)
ANN BERNARD d of Benjamin (occupation –) and Mary living at –
was baptised at Mere, WIL
Notes BERNARD in Reg : BARNARD in BT

An interesting marriage (given that Richard's son Richard was born Bristol c1821 per all censuses):

Ann Barnard (spinster) & George Jones (widower)
07/04/1828
St Mary Redcliffe (Bristol)

1841 and 1851 there are an Ann Jones and George Jones in Weston Super Mare, Somerset, Ann born Wiltshire. In 1861, Ann is:

Name: Ann Jones
Age: 75
Estimated Birth Year: abt 1786
Relation: Head
> Where born: Meak, Wiltshire, England --- it says Parish of Mear
Occupation: House Proprietor
Condition as to marriage: widowed

Name: William Cooke
Age: 4
Estimated birth year: abt 1857
Relation: Grandson
Where born: Bristol, Somerset, England

Civil Parish: Weston Super Mare
Town: Weston Super Mare
County/Island: Somerset


Possible deaths for Ann Jones: 1862 Axbridge, 1865 Axbridge
(too early for ages at death to be in index)


The coincidence of an Ann Barnard in Bristol marrying a widower Jones, and this Ann Jones being born in Mere and the exact age of my Ann Barnard, is just rather striking, "Jones" notwithstanding. ;)


>>> So I've been trying to figure out this William Cooke.

Could be:

Births Dec 1856
Cook William Bristol 6a 44

- the one born Q21857 Bristol belongs to an Abraham and Elizabeth, ruled him out

I have also ruled out, in 1871:

James Williams 61
Sarah Williams 62
> William Cook 14 - grandson born Bristol, Somerset
Bristol St Mary Redcliffe
- in 1861, William H (William Henry, Clifton 1857), Castle Cary, son of George Cook and Mary Williams (daughter of James and Sarah, 1841 census), m. 1855 Bristol - actually not a perfect match but seems reasonable

leaving, in 1871:

1. William John Cook 12 - stepson, born: Bristol, Somerset, England
John Harding 26
Mary Ann Harding 30 - Mary Ann Cook, married Clifton 1868
Civil parish: St Peter

Births Mar 1858 -- a bit too young
Cook William John Clifton 6a 138

2. William Cook 13 - visitor, born: Bristol; St Philip
Mary Lovell 47 - widowed, housekeeper, born Bristol St Philip c1824
- Mary Ann Hollister married John Lovell, Clifton 1865
- 1881 she is with brother James Hollister
Louisa Davis 23 - lodger
William Holmes 23 - lodger
Civil parish: St Philip and St Jacob

who is my choice. And a fat lot of help that census is.

And of course William Cook(e) could have died 1861-71. Thousands of 'em did.


I have no idea whether William Cooke in 1861 is a grandchild of Ann's husband by his first marriage, a grandchild of theirs together (unlikely given that she was 43 at marriage?), a grandchild via a child of Ann's before the marriage to Jones ... so no idea what his mother's surname might be: Jones, Barnard or something else (even assuming I'm right about Ann Jones's identity).


So, yes, I need to get his birth certificate. Before even bothering to go hunting for him in later censuses, etc. etc.

It's not bad enough I've lost a William Hill in a haystack of them; no, I have to find a William Cook and lose him too.

Any thoughts gratefull accepted. ;) But really I'm just thinking out loud before getting yet another certificate that might not even be the right one.


That's puzzle 1. Moving on now to puzzle 2 in the next post.

And now back to Richard Barnard c1795, discussed at length in the OP.

Baptism record is in hand -- as Bernard -- 1795, Mere, Wiltshire.
The marriage in Scotland of Richard Castle Bernard, gold-beater, to Anne Rae, is indisputably him, although his age on the matching Scottish census record 1841 is out by 10 years.
Not too sure of that wife's identity, but she died as Ann Barnard, 1858, aged 53, in Scotland.
This is consistent with Richard appearing as married in 1851 in Mere, Wiltshire, and as widowed in 1861, same place. He signed Ann's death certificate. So he was in the workhouse in Mere in 1851, while she was apparently in Scotland. Hm.

The reason why I want this Richard Barnard c1795 is that his son named, as father, on two marriage certificates 18 years apart, Richard Barnard, gold-beater. There just could not have been two of them of that age. (Yes, it was common to make up fathers and give them one's own name, but the son was nothing like a gold-beater, and there is a well-documented Richard who matches in all respects.)

What I can't find is who the son's mother -- Richard's (first) wife -- was.

Son was born in Bristol c1821 per all consistent censuses. Can't connect him with any other Bristol area Barnards. (And believe me, I've tried. Went so far as to investigate one family through several censuses, find two descendants here at GR, and prove that one of them wasn't a Barnard at all because her ancestor was born before the marriage of his mother to the Barnard in question!)

So, at the new familysearch I have just found:

Richard Barnard
Frances Collins
21 March 1814
St Paul's, Bristol, Gloucester, England

No other info (e.g. fathers).

The kind GR member who scrounged through Bristol records for me hadn't turned that one up.


And this brings me back to the actual subject of the thread I mentioned that was deleted for no reason whatsoever when I wasn't looking, a couple of years ago:

1861

Frances Barnard
Age: 65
Estimated Birth Year: abt 1796
Relation: Lodger
Gender: Female
Where born: Hilton, Dorset, England

Frances Barnard 65 - fundholder
Joseph B Davis 45 - master carpenter, employer
Maria Davis 44 - born Milford, Wiltshire (part of Salisbury)
William Davis 6
Ann Foreman 22

Civil Parish: Salisbury St Martin
County/Island: Wiltshire


JOSEPH BEDLOE DAVIS
Spouse: MARIA JONES
Marriage: 25 DEC 1838 Saint Martin, Salisbury, Wiltshire, England
Batch No.: M153142
(Also in the GRO index)


Just those odd coincidences. Widowed, living in Wiltshire, lodging with a Jones born in Wiltshire. Odd. Also, Dorset was where Richard's parents and sibs were deported from in 1791 back to Mere, Wiltshire, under the Poor Law.


But this must be Maria:

Maria Jones
Birth: Gigant St, Salisbury, Wiltshire, England
Christening: 23 JUN 1816 St Martin, Salisbury, Wiltshire, England
Father: John Jones
Mother: Ann
Batch No.: C031265

And thus the Jones a coincidence, quelle Gigant St surprise.

Unless John Jones was George Jones's brother, making Frances Barnard the wife of the brother of George Jones's wife ........


Would I be surprised if Richard c1795 committed bigamy when he married in Scotland? Knowing what I know of the men in this line? Not on your nelly.


>>> Problem is: I can't find that Frances Barnard anywhere anytime else.


This is where I started when lovely GR member Tom came up with the marriage in Scotland that I'd never looked for because I'd been stupidly searching for Richard c1795 in England in 1841 all those years, when he was in Scotland.

And it's where I still am, except for the interesting new twist of having found that 1814 marriage in Bristol. No births to it found, of course.


So there's me still with my annoying little puzzles!

Hmmm, Janey have you come across this tree before on Ancestry?

http://trees.ancestry.co.uk/tree/7607054/person/-1066698384


Tracey x

Hmmm,

...and this tree has Richard Barnard the son having 3 wives lol.

http://trees.ancestry.co.uk/tree/17061006/person/458805191

Also give the parents of Richard (Castle) Barnard as Thomas Barnard & Mary?

Tracey x

This tree has a Richard Bernard born 1791 Wiltshire married to an Anne Higgins

http://trees.ancestry.co.uk/tree/176761/person/-2004705015


Tracey x

I take it you have this?

County Wiltshire
Place Mere
Church St Michael the Archangel
RegisterNumber 959
BurialDate 28 Jun 1869
Forename Richard
Surname BARNARD
Age 77
Abode Mere
Notes
FileNumber 10303


Tracey x

Heh heh. I've been down that Richard Bernard 1791 married to Anne Higgins path! His descendant's spouse and I are old friends via her tree here at GR. ;) I did temporarily try to claim them, to see what matches I might get, and we worked out that they're different guys. It's a separate clan -- Marlborough, and they became Bernard although they started out Barnard.

RICHARD BARNARD
Christening: 13 FEB 1791 St Peter And St Paul, Marlborough, Wiltshire, England
Father: JOSEPH BARNARD
Mother: MARY
Batch No.: C020201
(and I so wanted to be descended from Joseph and Mary)



Re the Ancestry tree with 3 wives -- the other info is correct: Richard Barnard married to Mary Castle (they don't have the surname) are the parents of Richard 1821. Interesting. I hadn't run into that one before, I don't think. I'm kept busy smacking down the idiots who adopt any "hint" Ancestry gives them, and constantly put *my* Richard 1821 in their trees as being the Richard from Abinhall (or however it's spelled) with father Thomas.

Oh, I see, this particular one has done it up as if wife Mary A Barnard were somehow not the same as wife Mary A Cowdell, and has given wife Amelia Harnett two daughters named Amelia, and assigned the whole lot of the children (i.e. including Amelia's) to the mythical Mary A Barnard.

Probably as a result of some "hint" or other.

Okay, I think I know who that is, and what they have right has come from me. The rest is an amalgam of good stuff mashed into nonsense.

edit -- oh no. I see she does still have the parents of Richard Sr. as Thomas and Mary. She got that from another tree that belongs to a relation of Amelia Harnett (Richard Jr's first wife) who had them as the parents of Richard Jr!!! This one got the info about Richard Jr's father from me *and then* added her own nonsense about his parents being Thomas and Mary instead of Benjamin and Mary, I have no idea why. I've contacted the Harnett relation, and she's removed that (parents Thomas and Mary for Richard Jr) from her tree -- but the actual Barnard descendant, whom I've told it's *wrong* and has been corrected in the tree she got it from, has mashed it into hers in the next generation back. One despairs.


I'm actually quite parsimonious with whom I hand all my info to. I've worked long and hard on it, and unless they're descended, and genuinely interested and not just filling up their trees, they don't get it.


As for the Ancestry trees with Richard 1821 as son of Thomas and Mary -- that's an entirely separate Richard (and I've confirmed all details with a descendant here at GR).

I think I've had all the trees that show *my* Richard 1821 as having those parents rectified.

Myself, I just never bother looking at trees at Ancestry, they are such total crud.

I'm the only person who has ever gone back behind Richard 1821, to his father and grandparents, but only by skipping over his mother. So whenever you see the info that Richard c1795 has son Richard and parents Benjamin and Mary, it actually comes from me. ;)

(I did this by searching records at the defunct familyhistoryonline.net site, finding the various Barnards of Mere baptisms except for Richard Sr, and the 1791 Removal Order from Dorset, and then getting copies of original baptism records from the Wiltshire Records Office -- and then finding the marriage of Richard Barnard and Mary Castle 1782 at FreeREG, lucky me!)


Oh and yup, thanks, Richard Sr's death is in the GRO index, got him, but thanks for the details!


I was also going to add:

Name Mary BARNARD (i.e. Mary Castle)
Date 1 Jul 1812 Aged –
Place Mere
Description St Michael Denomination Anglican County code WIL

Name Benjamin BARNARD
Date 14 Aug 1801 Aged –
Place Mere
Description St Michael Denomination Anglican County code WIL


So Richard c1795 was a child when his father died, and 20 or under (age in censuses varies from baptism year) when his mother died. - edit - yes, he's older in the censuses (1791-2). ;) Except for that Scottish one ... but as I say, lying isn't something Barnard men are averse to.

"(age in censuses varies from baptism year)"

Are you accounting for the fact they might not have baptised him when he was born?

......and if it's the other way round and he's too young then i'll shut up!


T x :-)

It's boggling me, think my brain is running out of power.

Just to say, I am going to Bristol in 4 weeks. Unfortunately so far, only on Sunday, but hoping to make it Friday and Saturday too. But my daughter lives in Bristol, and given enough info, I will send her to the records office (know where it is - walking distance from her) to look for anything.

Give me details, will see what can be done.

Margaret

So listen, you guys!

Everything in MY posts is fact -- except where I state it as theory (Ann Jones, Frances Barnard).

Never mind the idiocy on other people's Ancestry trees, or other lookalike Barnards/Bernards!


Madmeg -- I think I would be sending your daughter on a goose chase. ;) But if she really really wouldn't be put out by it, what's wanted is:

>>> birth of Richard Barnard c1820-21 in Bristol, father supposedly Richard Barnard, gold-beater, per the son's marriage certificates

It's the mother's name I'm so eager to know.

- edit - Richard Jr's death suggests he was born mid-1818 to mid-1819:

Deaths Sep 1898
Barnard Richard 79 Canterbury 2a 562

- edit - edit - newsflash - I found his baptism, see next page:
Richard Bernard, 12 Sep 1819, Bristol, parents Richard Bernard and Frances.
So any details would be most welcome!!


So the other thing to be checked is then:

>>> marriage of Richard Barnard and Frances Collins, 21 March 1814, St Paul's, Bristol, Gloucester, England

The question being whether there's any identifying information about either of them, e.g. father's names, groom's occupation, home parish.


Oh yes! And that William Cook birth:

>>> William Cook, registered Q4 1856 Bristol

The question there being the parents' details, of course.


Ah, I rely on the kindness of strangers once again. ;)

Thanks so much for the offer, but don't be nagging at her. ;)

errrr, Janey

What is the relevance of this book; 'Wiltshire Beau, or the Life of Ben. Barnard' ??

Aparently it was advertised in The Gentleman's Magazine of 1765.

Could this be your Benjamin?


T x

OMG I found him at the new familysearch.

Name: Richard Bernard
Baptism/Christening Date: 12 Sep 1819
Baptism/Christening Place: Bristol, Gloucester, England
Father's Name: Richard Bernard
Mother's Name: Frances
Indexing Project (Batch) Number: C00888-0
System Origin: England-EASy
Source Film Number: 1596534
Reference Number: item 3 p 148
Collection: England Births and Christenings, 1538-1975


Searched for Richard with mother Frances and there he was.

OMG OMG OMG! I dunnit!


He is the one and only birth to parents Richard Bernard and Frances, of course.

See us irking you got you there!!


T x

Tracey, ha! My Benjamin married Mary Castle in 1782, so he might have been a little young to have a book written about him by 1765.

But as in many families (my Littler men are all Samuel and William, Hill men are all William and James ...), there are names common to Barnard men -- amazingly, no matter which separate clan they belong to. Benjamin, Richard and Thomas are the biggies.

There are the two main clans of Barnards in Wiltshire at the time that I know of: Marlborough and Mere. (I'm very convinced that the Barnard brothers who settled Martha's Vineyard in the 1600s with a Thomas Macy/Macey from Chilmark are from my bunch; Chilmark, Tisbury -- both names appear on Martha's Vineyard -- form a tiny triangle with Mere.)

Given that mine were being expelled under the Poor Law in 1791 from Dorset, I suspect they were the poor cousins. Although, with gambling and bad money management being in the blood ...

Anyhow that's quite interesting! I'll see whether anything at Wiltshire Wills matches up. (I think that so far there's nothing there to give me a link to earlier generations of Mere Barnards for whom there are wills shown -- I have a gap that would have to be bridged.)


edit ... 163 Barnard wills at the site (including quite a few in Mere) -- no Benjamin ...

...you of course meant 1781?

County Wiltshire
Place Mere
Church St Michael the Archangel
RegisterNumber
MarriageDate 18 Jul 1781
GroomForename Benjamin
GroomSurname BARNARD

BrideForename Mary
BrideSurname CASTLE

WitnessOneForename William
WitnessOneSurname MOORS
WitnessTwoForename Ann
WitnessTwoSurname MOORE
Notes Banns
FileNumber 10304


:-)

Tracey x

Don't you just hate who you find you're related to sometimes?

I'm already related to a right-winger in the US I had to ask to stop sending me religious-right crud. I just found this, re the Barnard brothers who settled Martha's Vineyard:

http://www.pcez.com/~bigshoe/du/Rice/smithwl.html

(I believe the Wiltshire suggestion is the one that came originally from me, via a genforum board, a few years ago -- and a descendant did tell me that one of the original Barnards is recorded on Martha's Vineyard, at death, as born in Chilmark, i.e. Wiltshire. Thomas Macy of Chilmark, Wilts, originally settled in Salisbury, Mass. I mean, duh.)

4634. Thomas Barnard /Barnett

* b. ABT 1608 Lowestoft, Suffolk, England
* d. 7 July 1677 Amesbury, i. Salisbury, Essex, MA (killed by Indians)
* to America 1640
* Occupation: Planter, Husbandman
* Father: poss. Thomas B. Barnard
* Mother: poss. Anne Cooke

"There is no real proof to the parentage of (4634) Thomas and (9269vii) Robert. [It was certainly NOT] William and Emily (Nye) Barnard of Yorkshire Co., England. One of the ladies doing Barnard research says she had research done on the Wiltshire Barnards, but there was no way to tie them into the young men who emigrated to the colonies. She says a stronger case is made that the parents were (9268) Thomas and (9269) Ann (Cooke) Barnard of Suffolk Co., England. Patricia Burns has done extensive research, and this line seems to be the most valid one...


http://www.pcez.com/~bigshoe/

Presumed President Obama applied for and got student aid as a "foreign student". His grade school records show him as an Indonesian citizen, and His grandmother avows that he was born in Kenya. Why is Mr. Obama trying to hide the facts of his birth? Is it because non-native-born US Citizens cannot Constitutionally become U. S. President? Obama consistantly refuses to release to the public a copy of a long-form live birth record that could prove that he was born in the United States. Shouldn't he be required by law to do this?



Shouldn't people this noxious be prevented from using the internet? ;)



Tracey, yes, I meant 1781! First daughter was born 1782, and I always mix that up. And I did put that transcript in a previous post. ;)