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IF the 1891/ 1901 census are her
have you looked for her elslewhere?
what makes you so sure she was born in worcester??
as one census has her born, birmingham warwickshire
then we go to her marrying in oxford ,what was she doing marrying in oxford ?
and born in worcester
and nellie being born in brentford.

Shown as Jack on marriage certificate and commercial traveller

did john /jack deceased have a occupation listed?
on the marriage cert

Lancashireann - you're brilliant. Don't know how I missed this. It isn't on IGI and I was convinced she must have died earlier. Will now get death certificate.

Many thanks

Ann

lancashireann - the 1904 death for Kate Francis looks very interesting. I was purely going by the fact that Dorothy was living with her grandparents from the age of 1 year and I couldn't find Kate after that. Certainly looks like her. Will investigate further. I'm in the middle of cooking dinner now.

Vivienne - yes Nellie Bessie was illegitimate. Her birth is recorded as Nellie Bessie Goodall Francis in Brentford. She didn't use the name Francis. Dorothy did not marry before 1918 when she married George Savage. The story went that Goodall was a chauffeur but I haven't been able to tie Dorothy in with a chauffeur anywhere so far. Apparently she always said she would take her secrets to the grave!

Dorothy's birth year and place are shown on the 1891 census. Also I now have the baptism record for her which shows she was 15 in 1905 when baptised. When she married George Savage in 1918 she was 28 according to her marriage certificate. Her father was shown as Jack Francis (deceased).

Thank you to you all for your interest. Hope I've answered your queries.

Probably won't get back here now until much later.

this one ?

Marriages Sep 1918 (>99%)
Francis Dorothy Savage Oxford 3a 2525
Savage George Francis Oxford 3a 2525

going off line now, but will be interested to know how dorothys birth year/place was arrived at?
viv

ah , thank you ,
but then all that we have is nellies birth cert to go on and no age for dorothy,for sure.
so do you have dorothys marriage to mr savage for her age and fathers name and occupation?

think this answers your question Vivienne

Births Sep 1911
FRANCIS Nellie B G Francis Brentford 3a 364

i have been watching this and searched but found nothing to help but

if there is no father on nellies birth in 1911 then that makes her illegitimate,yes?

how can she have the surname ,goodall ,if her mother was a francis?
or was dorothy married to a goodall and had left him
and then had a child with someone else?like my greatgran!
sorry but that puzzled me

are you sure kate died in 1890 as this one seems to fit with the Kate Dyer in 1881 (age 28)

Deaths Dec 1904 (98%)
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FRANCIS Kate 52 Worcester 6c 151

Thank you lancashireann. I think I did have this census and they are the right family. Kate obviously had Dorothy just before the 1891 census but had she married John Francis? Can't find her on the 1891 or later.

Dorothy is on the 1891 and 1901 but not the 1911 when she had Nellie Bessie Goodall (just after the census was taken). I checked the 1911 for the address given on Nellie's birth certificate but they weren't there at the time of the census. Incidentally Nellie's birth certificate gives no information for father or his occupation. Dorothy married a Savage in 1918.

I think they all liked to keep people guessing!

found this one for 1881 but not sure if it is the right age for Kate

George DYER Head M Male 55 Gloucester, England Grocer
Mary DYER Wife M Female 54 Worcester, England
Kate DYER Daur U Female 28 Worcester, England
Alfred DYER Son U Male 21 Worcester, England
Annie DYER Daur U Female 19 Worcester, England Teacher Public (School)
W.Charles DYER Son U Male 16 Worcester, England Commission Clerk
William A. DYER Son U Male 10 Worcester, England Scholar
C.Mason DYER Gd Son U Male 4 Worcester, England Scholar
Annie EGGINTON Servant U Female 18 Worcester, England Domestic Servant

Source Information:
Dwelling 42 St Paul St (Grocers Shop)
Census Place Worcester Blockhouse, Worcester, England
Family History Library Film 1341699
Public Records Office Reference RG11
Piece / Folio 2917 / 20
Page Number 34

Helen - thank you. I do have the 1901 census but thanks anyway.

Sablon - thank you too. John William Francis' birth year looks right. Don't understand why he would be born and died in Suffolk and buried in Co Durham. I just get the feeling it's not him - but will check further.
Kate Francis died in 1890 in Sevenoaks, looks possible but the family were all, including Dorothy, in Worcester in 1891.
Dorothy Ada Francis is shown being born in Croydon whereas our Dorothy Francis was born in Worcester and baptised with no middle name.

Thanks again for your input.

Ann

i can't find a marriage for Kate on bdm

could this be her birth and Kate died in childbirth

Births Dec 1890
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Francis Dorothy Ada Croydon 2a 229


The district Croydon spans the boundaries of the counties of Greater London, Kent and Surrey

found this death

Deaths Dec 1890 (>99%)
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Francis Kate 28 Sevenoaks 2a 399

Individual Record FamilySearch™ Pedigree Resource File

Search Results | Print

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John William Francis Compact Disc #130 Pin #1545919 Pedigree
Sex: M

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Event(s)
Birth: 15 Dec 1853

Woodbridge, , Suffolk, Eng.
Christening: 31 Dec 1861

Walton, , Suffolk, Eng.
Death: 11 Feb 1910

Sunderland, , Co. Durham, Eng.
Burial: 17 Feb 1910

Sunderland, Co. Durham. Eng.

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Parents
Father: John Francis Disc #130 Pin #1545984
Mother: Mahala Durrant Disc #130 Pin #1545985

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Marriage(s)
Spouse: Emily S Disc #130 Pin #1546661
Marriage: bef 1881


Spouse: Jane Cocklan Disc #130 Pin #1545920
Marriage: 13 Aug 1882
Sunderland, , Co. Durham, Eng.

Spouse: Kate Disc #130 Pin #1547161
Marriage:

1901 England Census
about Dorothey Francis
Name: Dorothey Francis
Age: 11
Estimated Birth Year: abt 1890
Relation: Granddaughter
Gender: Female
Where born: Birmingham

Civil Parish: Worcester
Ecclesiastical parish: St George
Town: Worcester
County/Island: Worcestershire
Country: England

Street address:

Occupation:

Condition as to marriage:

Education:

Employment status:

View Image

Registration district: Worcester
Sub registration district: Worcester
ED, institution, or vessel: 37
Neighbors: View others on page
Household schedule number: 74
Household Members:
Name Age
Mary Dyar 73
Frederick J Dyer 13
Dorothey Francis 11
Harbert Wright 18

I have been searching for details on Dorothy Francis for a long time. Michelle helped me a few months ago regarding her mother's family.

Dorothy was born c. 1890 in Worcester but can find no birth registration. I have just obtained a copy of her baptism record which shows her parents were John (also known as Jack) Francis and her mother was Kate. Had previously been unable to ascertain who her mother was.

Kate was a Dyer but cannot find whether she married John Francis. On 1891 and 1901 census Dorothy is shown living with her grandparents, George and Mary Dyer in Worcester.

Possible John Francis on 1871 census shown as plate layer born in Ombersley c. 1853 - parents John and Sarah.

What I am looking for is a birth registration for Dorothy Francis, birth details for John (Jack) Francis and marriage registration for John Francis and Kate Dyer. More importantly, where were Kate and John in 1891? Had Kate died? Or possibly both of them - I doubt it. If not, where were they? Cannot find them together at all and neither of them after 1871.

Hope you're not all too confused! Would really love some help here please.

Thanks

Ann