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EvieBeavie

Thanks so much for staying with me.

Yes I have no doubt that you are right, John could well have been the only sibling she had left, and I still think that his marriage is a good starting point, if only to find out of their father's match up, you can bet your life it will be squiggle again!

John certainly seem to get about it, travelling to Lancashire and then ending up on Saddleworth Moor, but at least he and Charlotte are consistent with their info.

Just another snippet, Susanna's first child is called Sarah, I seem to remember a Sarah in the info you gave me. Could be barking up the wrong tree, but worth a shot!

Spiral

Dea

Just some extra info for you

Susannah dies in 1857, again I have this cert, she dies in childbirth, it appears that sadly the child she was carrying dies with her as there is no child aged about 4 in the 1861 with William. She dies at Hill Top, Dronfield.

Samuel, their son, marries Catherine Wilkinson in 1873 if my memory serves me correctly and it is their daughter Hannah where my connection with the Naylor's starts. Again I have all the certs for Catherine and her daughter Hannah, they all match up.

William appears to marry Theresa Murray in 1860 in Sheffield, sadly she too appears to die in 1865, he doesn't have much luck with his wives!

Hope this helps

Spiral

Well - witness John Fisher - surely - ! John, husband of Charlotte Newbould, brother of Susannah.

(Whether or not any of the bumph about John & Amelia is true -- he's the only other Dinnington Fisher in the censuses apart from the James & Elizabeth batch, and he and Susannah surely must be related.)

I've tried to track down other children from that submitted list, to no avail. I suspect a lot of deaths in infancy. John might have been the only sib left by the time Susannah married. And I can't identify him in 1841, but you give it a try!

Dea

Just to humour you (ha ha )

Marriage cert says:

William Naylor aged 26 a Bachelor occupation Woodcutter, living at George Street Sheffield, father Thomas Naylor also a Woodcutter
marries
Susanna Fisher aged 22 no occupation, also living at George Street Sheffield father (squiggle) W????? Fisher, Blacksmith

They are married by Banns, William Naylor is able to write his name, Susanna cannot. a John Fisher and a W (again its a squggle) Hudson are witnesses.

I have their son Samuel Naylor born 1848 birth marriage and death certs and followed him through the census's. All the certs for Samuel match up and are consistant in their info.

After the death of Susanna, William marries again to Theresa Murray I think, she is Irish.

Any thoughts would be very appreciated, though I think the Newbould marriage is a good bet, though I am more than prepared to be proved wrong.

Spiral

I am sure Evie is on the right track but I have found a few other things which are puzzling me so I 'feel the need' to search further.

Can I go back to the cert please?

Can you give me ALL the details from the marriage cert - ages, names, occupations, fathers, witnesses, addresses etc... - I need to go through everything you have.

How have you got back to this couple? - are you TOTALLY sure that this is the correct William Naylor + Susannah?

'Humour me' here - you know what I am like when I am trying to sort something (tee hee).

Thanks,

Dea x

EvieBeavie

We seem to have posted at a similiar time!

yes I have found some of the submitted records on IGI to be complete works of fiction at times, someone had my Gt Gt Grandmother marrying under her stepfather's name, I know full well she didn't as I have the certs.

I did actually manage to track the person down, she turned out to be a distant relative of my Grandmother and she admitted she just submitted it as a "thought"- just goes to show in this game we should check, check and check again- don't just blindly take someone else's "thoughts".

I still think you and Dea have been brilliant with the info you have supplied, can't wait to get my hands on that Fisher/Newbould marriage now.

Spiral

EvieBevie and Dea

I think you have cracked it, I have had a good poke about in the census info you gave me, and considering that Dronfield was such a small area, and that Norton, Totley and Mickley all border it (or did), it seem too much of a coincidence for the Fisher's, Newbould (or Newbold- which incidentally is another village name a few miles away and the Newbold's fit in again in this line but much further down), and the Aves (or whatever they become) not to be connected in some way.

Mickley, is where one of Susannah's son's (Samuel) is born in 1848, all of the places above are in about a five mile radius of each other, (according to Multimap), so all perfectly possible.

I think this is another success for you both, and shall be ordering the certs, to see if we can untangle this a bit more.

Thank you both so much, there was me thinking I would never crack this, it still might lead me a merry dance when I get the certs, but at least I have something to go on now and a few more leads to investigate.

Thanks again, you have been brilliant!!!

Spiral

I wonder.

I was looking for a remarriage of the Amelia who was supposedly the mother of that batch of Fishers.


AMELIA FISHER
Spouse: JOHN FISHER
Marriage: 25 MAY 1828 Thornhill By Dewsbury, Yorkshire, England
Batch No.: M009802 (extracted record)

Now, that marriage would certainly account for the Richard in the list above -- batch C009802.


Do you suppose someone just latched onto that marriage as the source of the other Fishers, in a desperate search for enough ancestors to get to heaven?

Some fool distant cousin of mine submitted one of my ancestors to the IGI as having married his mother ...

I might just save you some spending. ;)

It looks like the same person here at GR has both John Fisher and Charlotte Newbould in his tree. And he has Susan 1822. He is a Fisher.

Several other people have the James & Elizabeth batch of Dinnington Fishers. (I just searched for Fisher born Dinnington 1800-1840 and all the names from the 1841 census are there.) He also has a John 1795 and:

William 1816 Dinnington,Yorks?, South Yorkshire, England


The names in the IGI submitted records for children of John & Amelia are:

Birth/Christening, 1816 - 1836, Yorkshire, England, British Isles
Father: John Fisher, Mother: Amelia

1. EMMA FISHER - International Genealogical Index
Gender: Female Christening: 30 SEP 1833 Dinnington, Yorkshire, England
2. ELIZ. FISHER - International Genealogical Index
Gender: Female Christening: 20 SEP 1818 Dinnington, Yorkshire, England
3. JOHN FISHER - International Genealogical Index
Gender: Male Christening: 25 SEP 1825 Dinnington, Yorkshire, England
4. SUSAN FISHER - International Genealogical Index
Gender: Female Christening: 25 DEC 1822 Dinnington, Yorkshire, England
5. JAMES FISHER - International Genealogical Index
Gender: Male Christening: 05 JUL 1827 Dinnington, Yorkshire, England
6. SARAH FISHER - International Genealogical Index
Gender: Female Christening: 16 OCT 1820 Dinnington, Yorkshire, England
7. FRANCIS FISHER - International Genealogical Index
Gender: Male Christening: 26 SEP 1830 Dinnington, Yorkshire, England
8. RICHARD HENRY FISHER - International Genealogical Index
Gender: Male Christening: 01 MAR 1837 Thornhill By Dewsbury, Yorkshire, England

Lots of overlap with the names in the other batch.

Now, this could be a closed loop. The person with those names in his tree may have got them from the submitted records in the IGI ...................

EavieBeavie & Dea

Right Hubby fed and watered and now busy watching the footy, so should be able to concentrate on the Fisher's again.

Well you have certainly come up with some very good ideas while I have been feeding hubby.

As you know Dea I am not one of those that will NOT buy the certs, If only, my bank account would certainly be a lot healthier if I was one of those people!

The Fisher/Newbould Marriage is looking a very likely candidate for next on the GRO list, and for good measure I think the William Fisher death in 1838 too.

The name on the marriage cert I have is just a squiggle, William Naylor's father is very clearly written, but Susannah's, its only two letters that look very like WM.

The Newboulds and Aves???? are certainly worth a further look. From what I know of Dronfield it was just a tiny place in the early 1800's, only really started to expand in the late 1890's when Iron was found there (see spend my money on a lot of books as well as certs!)


Thanks again for all your help, you have certainly given me a lot to go on and explore, trust me to have a complex family!

Spiral

Dea!

What do you think of getting the John Fisher + Charlotte Newbould marriage cert and seeing what it says for father?

I'm wondering whether Wm Fisher, blacksmith, is an amalgam of real father + stepfather. Not unknown to happen. Fisher was real father, William was stepfather, blacksmith was ? .

Hi Cheryl,

AAAhhhhhh !! - The 'Tranter's - I remember them well !!

Nice to talk again.

Are you absolutely SURE it says her father is William on the cert? - I have been looking through some old directories of the area - 1822 and 1840's - there is no mention in any of them of a William Fisher and the only Blacksmith mentioned is James ???

Really hard one this!

Dea x

Okay, let me tangle this some more.

Charlotte Newbould, wife of John Fisher (who, according to submitted info in IGI, is son of John and Amelia and brother of Susan Fisher), in 1841 in Dronfield, pages 7-8:

James Newbold 40 - farmer
Mary Newbold 35
Charlotte Newbold 10
Anne Newbold 6
Elizabeth Newbold 3
William Harlow 30
Edward Peel 20
George Heathcote 15
Mary Hancock 15


In Dronfield on page 11 is this family -- all born out of county:

John Aves 40 - Ag Lab
Mary Aves 40
William Aves 20
Lydia Aves 15
Susannah Aves 15
Dinah Aves 13

I'm dratted if I can read that surname. I don't think I would say Aves. But that could fit with your Susannah's mother remarrying.


The one solid thing I think we may have is the John Fisher + Charlotte Newbould marriage with John being your Susannah's brother, if there is any truth at all in the submitted records in the IGI. What he is, is a Fisher from Dinnington not accounted for by the James Fisher household, anyway.

"As for the Wragg marriage, I somehow don't think that's mine, but could elimate the one that you have found."

Yup, that's what I meant -- not that she would be yours, but that she could be the one in Dinnington in 1841, daughter of James Wragg and Mary Sampson. It would take some work to try to find the Susannah Wragg who married in 1845 in censuses before/after that marriage -- or just some money to get the certificate. ;)

"I have just noticed a death of a William Fisher in 1838 in Sheffield, so maybe she was telling the truth and poor old Bill the Blacksmith was her father, but he had died before the 1841 census."

Now, that would put your Susannah in Sheffield in 1841?

I just checked the batch in which the Wragg marriage is, M107891, and only a Frances May Fisher marriage -- the batch probably starts too late ... let's check Hugh Wallis ... nope, it covers 1813-1836.

Well, it is possible that your Susannah's parents were older and married before 1813: M107892. That has Thomas Fisher + Elisabeth Bays, 1777.

The christening batches for Stainton By Tickhill - C107891, C107892 - have no Fishers at all!

Aha. Fishers in a submitted batch: Reuben, 1826, Dinnington, 7812935.

Which includes the one I assume was in the thread and has been deleted:

SUSAN FISHER
Christening: 25 DEC 1822 Dinnington, Yorkshire, England
Father: JOHN FISHER Family
Mother: AMELIA

There are 6 other children shown for them.

This is one of those children, in 1851 (the John son of James and Elizabeth is still with his parents):

Name: John Fisher
Age: 25
Estimated Birth Year: abt 1826
Relation: Head
Spouse's Name: Charlotte
Where born: Dinnington, Yorkshire, England
Civil Parish: Norton
County/Island: Derbyshire

I wonder what his marriage certificate says?

Possibly this one:

Marriages Mar 1849
Fisher John Sheffield 22 460
Newbould Charlotte Sheffield 22 460

Oh hmm! In 1851, his wife is:

Name: Charlotte Fisher
Age: 20
Estimated Birth Year: abt 1831
Relation: Wife
Spouse's Name: John
Gender: Female
>>> Where born: Dronfield, Derbyshire, England

Just to let you know, hubby just arrived demanding his dinner, so will pop back in a while and see if any of us can solve this problem.

Many Thanks to all who have helped so far

Best wishes

Spiral

Hello again Dea!

You still trying to find people for others?

I learnt so much from you when you helped me with Coopes and Tranters in Belper, but these Fishers have me stumped!

The only possible explaination I can come up with is IF the William Fisher death I have found in 1838 is Bill the Blacksmith, then Mrs Fisher could have remarried and Susanna could be hiding under a differant name.

Spiral (Cheryl)

The only one I can offer you on 1841 is working as a servant in Gloucestershire, but NOT born in County - doesn't really help you, I know, but it is a possible:

Susanna Fisher
Age: 15
Estimated Birth Year: abt 1826
Gender: Female

Civil Parish: Cirencester
Hundred: Cirencester Borough
County/Island: Gloucestershire
Country: England

Street address:

Occupation: View Image

Registration district: Cirencester
Sub registration district: Cirencester
Neighbors: View others on page
Household Members: Name Age
Joseph Smith 35
Sarah Smith 25
Frederick Smith 2
William Smith 1
Ann Bareadell 15
Susanna Fisher 15


Source Citation: Class: HO107; Piece 380; Book: 2; Civil Parish: Cirencester; County: Gloucestershire; Enumeration District: 4; Folio: 15; Page: 25; Line: 6; GSU roll: 288789.

Source Information:


Dea x

EvieBeavie

For a second there I thought I had gone mad!

I quite agree with you a Fisher family of Blacksmiths in Dinnington is rather a coincidence and something worth exploring.

As for the Wragg marriage, I somehow don't think that's mine, but could elimate the one that you have found. I have a copy of her marriage cert in front of me and its definately Fisher, her son's birth cert also says Susannah's name is Naylor, formerly Fisher. I have just noticed a death of a William Fisher in 1838 in Sheffield, so maybe she was telling the truth and poor old Bill the Blacksmith was her father, but he had died before the 1841 census.

For all I know she could have been born somewhere else apart from Dinnington, but as I only have the 1851 census to go, I can't not believe her at the moment.

Susannah dies in 1857 in Hill Top, Dronfield, North Derbyshire, her husband stays in the Dronfield area and goes on to marry 3 times, each time his wife's get younger and younger!

Thanks again for taking a look, will follow up the Dinnington link, unless you can think of anything else, as I said I usually have some tricks that will help me find people, but this lot don't seem to want to be found.

Spiral

I think this one is very interesting.

1841

Name: Susanne Rag
Age: 15
Estimated Birth Year: abt 1826
Where born: Yorkshire, England

Civil Parish: Dinnington
Hundred: Strafforth and Tickhill (South Division)
County/Island: Yorkshire
Country: England
Registration district: Worksop
Sub registration district: Anston

William Sampson 60 - farmer
Susanne Rag 15


SUSANNE WRAGG
Christening: 11 AUG 1822 Braithwell, Yorkshire, England
Father: JAMES WRAGG
Mother: MARY
Batch No.: C049561

JAMES WRAGG
Spouse: MARY SAMPSON
Marriage: 13 APR 1822 Stainton By Tickhill, Yorkshire, England
Batch No.: M107891


Why? you ask. ;)


Right next door to that household in 1841 is this one:

James Fisher 45 - farmer
Elizabeth Fisher 45
William Fisher 20 ------- blacksmith
John Fisher 15 - blacksmith apprentice
Thomas Fisher 20
Elizabeth Fisher 15
Frances Fisher 13 (note: male, i.e. Francis)
James Fisher 23
Ruben Fisher 15
Sarah Fisher 11
Robert Fisher 9


Too much coincidence for my taste. ;)

Now -- that may not be the right Susannah, but I think that has to be the right Fisher family, one way or another. Your Susannah may just not have known her father, and picked another family member for the occasion.


A Susannah Wragg did marry in Sheffield in 1845, and I'm not seeing any definite candidate for her in 1845, so only that marriage certificate would show whether she was the Susanne Rag in Dinnington in 1841.

Somerset Girl

Thanks for helping in my search, Yes the IGI record fits sort of, the place of birth is right and the date is acceptable (we all know people tended to forget just how they were or even lied), problem is it the submitted record gives her father as John, Not William as her marriage cert says.

If only I could find some record on the 1841 of Susanna in thre right place with a father actual present (any name would do right now!), if he is a blacksmith I can maybe glean some clues from it.

Thanks again for taking a look.

Spiral