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Aha, Peter.

That is one of the census records I posted on the previous page. I had not looked at the original image, of course -- took the transcription from Ancestry.

Your info confirms that the Ann Boyd I had found was formerly Guthrie, the info Rachelle has.

A lesson: always look at the original census images at SP. You never know what else they might have!

From the 1881 Census:
Dwelling: Stewarton Rd (Bellstone)
Census Place: Dalry, AYR, Scotland
Ann BOYD (GUTHRIE) Wid Head 68 b. Kilwinning AYR Farm Servant (Formerly)
Jas. BOYD Unm Son 49 b. Kilwinning AYR School teacher Disengaged
Ann OLIPHANT Gran Daughter 5 b. Dalry AYR

Hope this is of help,
Peter Mack

Just wanted to say a big thank you for everyone's help!

I finally today managed to locate the death certificate for Annie Boyd Thomson - the reason I could not locate it is that Scotland's people for some reason have her listed as Annie Boyd, although the certificate clearly states her name was Annie Boyd Thomson.

As well as this I found the death of her husband in the same year (1954) and I found birth certificates for two more children, Robert Boyd Thomson b 1907 and James b 1904.

The biggest breakthrough for me (am so excited about this) is that Annie's death certificate had given me the correct name for another daughter Jessie that we have never been able to track although we knew she had passed on in the 1990's.

Thank you all so much for your help, especially Evie. All I need to do for this little bit is to track down the reamining son, but as I don't know his name and none of the other sites are coming up with anything he may have to remain a mystery!

Cheers

Rachelle

HI Thomas,

Perhaps there were two families....

My Grandma Annie Boyd Oliphant Thomson had a sister Jessie, but we do not know anything about her date of birth etc where she was born. All I know is that she resided in Ayr her whole life with her daughter Ann. My mother does not believe that she was ever married.

I did find a death record for a Jessie Walker Thomson and an Ann Walker Mack Thomson on 1997 and 2006, but I cannot confirm if these are the correct two people or not.

Only my grandma and grandpa it would appear emmigrated to Australia, then returned in time for WW2 and lived in Prestwick, Ayr and then came back again and settled in Australia. My mother is positive they said they lived in Rugby, but I am not sure where this is or if that is in any way helpful.

The mysteries of it all!

Rachelle

Never ever apologize for confusing, Tom!

I firmly believe that all possibles have to be identified and tracked and then ruled in or out. That's exactly what you've done -- even if it ultimately means ruling out, it needed to be done!

I think your idea of the two similarly-named groups makes sense.

I'm also totally confused! I found the birth for Annie Boyd Oliphant Thomson. in 1907. On that her mother maiden name is given as Oliphant. This still doesn't explain how on Annie Boyd Thomson's death certificate, registered by her husband James Thomson shows her parents as John Horn and Jessie Ballantyne

I am begining to think that there are two Annie Boyd Thomsons, One with Peter and Mary Oliphant as parents and another with John and Jessie Horn. If this is the case then Annie Boyd Thomson who died in 1908 is not your relative. I have searched all the death records from the date of Annie Boyd Oliphant Thomson's birth and cannot find a record for another Annie Boyd Thomson m.s, Oliphant. I tried variant spellings for Oliphant and Thomson and still no record.


The coincidence lies in the fact that both Mary Oliphant and Jessie horn both had mothers called Ann. Jessies mother was Anne Ballantyne m.s Boyd and Mary's was Ann Boyd m.s Guthrie.

You say Annie (born 1907) had a younger sister Jessie ...what year was she born? Was she born in Scotland? Did the family move out of Scotland?

I am sorry for confusing everyone, with this.

Tom

Thanks Evie, I am a bit condused also, but I think that the information you found earlier kind of fits together. I could trace the Boyds and Sloans and Dales.

I think Thomas has the correct death date of Annie Boyd Thomson on 04/06/1908 married to James Thomson aged 32 at Cathcart in Airdrie. This would mean that she died when her daughter Annie Boyd Oliphant Thomson was only one year old. ...sad.

I know that Annie Boyd Oliphant Thomson (my grandma) had a younger sister Jessie, so it looks as though her father James must have remarried. I will trace that bit next!

Thanks so much once again, it has been graet being able to pass news of these discoveries onto my mother.

Kind regards

Rachelle

Hi Rachelle -- just for the record, this is the Boyd household in 1851 in Dalry:

Robert Boyd 44 - occ Freestone Quarrier
Ann Boyd 36
Janet Boyd 9
Marry Boyd 7
Thomas Boyd 4
Martha Boyd 1


and in 1861:

Robert Boyd 50
Ann Boyd 45
Mary Boyd 17
Martha Boyd 12
Archibald Boyd 4
James Milne 55


Looks like no Jessie. I'm not averse at all to Tom's theory though. I wonder whether Jessie might have been a cousin ...

I'm a bit lost about Ann Boyd being married to Ballantyne. Will have to review the tale later!

Thanks Tom and Evie for all your work..

I can confirm some things in your posts, Matha's maiden name was Boyd, her mother was Ann Boyd nee Guthrie.

The census that Evie found shows Annie Oliphant living with her Grandmather and a John Boyd, then in the latter census she is aged 15 and living with Ann at the home or Martha.

I am a bit confused about the ophan part and being adopted, as everything that Evie found earlier seemed to have fit, ie that Peter Oliphant and Mary had had a baby but never married, and then Annie (the clild of these two) lived with her Grandma then Martha.

The older Ann Boyd (nee Guthrie) did not have a daughter Jessie (or from what I have been able to find so far). They had 4 or five children but no Jessie.

Rachelle

Hi Eavie.

This one has me intrigued and I'll get back to searching on Monday when I'm back at work.

Before formal adoption in Scotland (round about 1938) orphans were adopted informally usually through the church or by other family members who would pass the children on to other family members, friends and somtimes neighbours. The number of times I've been told " yeah his granny gave him to her pal Jeanie to bring up" would astound you!

Even now if I am registering a death and the informant happens to say of the deceased, "he/she was adopted" and then tell me that they know who the natural parents are. When this happens I have to point out to them that as it was an informal adoption and the natural parents are known, then legally the details must be entered in the register. If they do not know who the natural parents were then the adoptive parents can be entered and the words "adoptive parent" entered in the register just above their names.

To answer your question, yes I have had instances of unmarried couples informally adopting someone and even single Uncles or Aunts adopting orphaned children informally. It was only when the adoption process became legalised and administered by local authorities that restrictions were put on who could or could not adopt a child.

Anyway, I'll check the OPR's and 1851 and 1861 censuses for Jessie Ballantyne or Boyd. I know she had a sister Christina who also married in1872 in the same district as Jessie and John Horn. I will check to see if they had a sister Mary Ballantyne or Boyd or a brother who marries a Mary who later went on to marry Peter Oliphant or assume his name.

One thing puzzles me.....In the 1891 census Ann Boyd aged 80....if she was married to Ballantyne why is she using Boyd in the Census? Also when she died a few years later she has a totally different married name. As she is described as the mother in law we can assume as you have already said that Martha Sloan is her daughter. I will also check for that marriage and see if Martha's m.s was Ballantyne or Boyd.

Anyway I am off now and hope I've not muddied the waters even more

bye

Tom

Uh ... !

(First, in my defence regarding failing to find the very obvious Annie Oliphant in the censuses -- from Rachelle's other thread I had gathered that Annie was a generation younger than she actually was, so I was looking for entirely the wrong things.)

So Thomas.

You've read all of the thread? (just page 2 is really relevant)

We have obviously identified the same Annie Oliphant in the 1881 and 1891 censuses. We came at her from two opposite directions.

I found her in the 1891 census first, then the 1881, and then found the grandmother Ann Boyd before Annie's birth with her daughter Mary Boyd.

I haven't gone behind 1871 yet, because that confirmed the relationship. The 1861 or 1851 should show grandmother Ann Boyd with daughters Mary and Jessie, if it's the case that Jessie was a daughter/sister.

Have you checked that?

So as I understand it, we have the same Annie Oliphant with grandmother Ann Boyd.

I was going on the inference that Ann Boyd's daughter Mary was Annie Oliphant's mother, from the info on the marriage certificate. The Peter Oliphant whom I identified in censuses before Annie Oliphant's birth seemed likely to be her father -- basically, right name, right age group, right place. And no record of him after, what was it, 1871? No marriage, no death ... may have headed south or way west ... I just couldn't find him. So it looked like he had died or done a bunk around when Annie was born.

Now, you're thinking that Annie was the daughter of Mary Boyd's married sister Jessie Horn, who died and her husband became incapacitated.

I can't figure out why Annie Oliphant would have claimed Mary Boyd and the very elusive Peter Oliphant as her parents in that case! She became orphaned, to all intents and purposes, just before the 1881 census at a very young age, and in that census she is with her maternal grandmother and uncle, under the name Oliphant. That's a very short time frame for getting adopted and then essentially orphaned again!

But your names and dates do all fit rather well, don't they?

Do you think she would not have known who her real parents (the Horns) were? Would a formal adoption have been possible? How would Peter Oliphant and Mary Boyd have adopted her if they weren't married?!

Let's have the feathers and furbelows of the theory here now. ;)

I, like you, could not find a birth for an Annie Oliphant to Peter Oliphant and Mary Oliphant m.s. Boyd.

I looked up the marriage of Annie Boyd Oliphant to James Thomson and they were married on 06/06/1900 at Dalry in Ayr. Annie's parent are given as Peter Oliphant and Mary Oliphant m.s. Boyd. Bride and groom both aged 25.

The 1901 Census gives James and Annie Thomson aged 26 and 25 respectively ( census obviously taken before her birthday) living at 6 Vennel Street Dalry in Ayr. Both are said to be born in Ayrshire.

I then looked up the deaths for an Annie Thomson.

I found the death of Annie Boyd Thomson on 04/06/1908 married to James Thomson aged 32 at Cathcart in Airdrie. This is the only one in Scotland I could find. I couldn't find an Annie Thomson who's maiden name was Oliphant and with the parents given on the marriage certificate.

The death I found (above) gave her parents as John Horn and Jessie Horn m.s Ballantyne (deceased).

So I looked up the birth for Annie Horn and found it on 04/10/1975 in Airdrie (the same general region in Scotland). With John and Jessie as parents.

I thought I would look a wee bit further and found that Jessie Horn m.s Ballantyne married to John Horn died 14/01/1880 (when Annie was 4years and 2 months old) Jessie's mother is given as Ann Boyd!

Indeed on the 1891 Census a 15 year old Annie Oliphant is living with her grandmother Ann Boyd!

I then had a feeling that Annie may have been adopted, and looked up the death of John Horn (with parents named, on his marriage to Jessie Ballantyne, as John Horn and Janet Kane) and could not find any for Scotland. The only death I could find which fitted the name and age was for a John Horn who died 24/08/1882 aged 36 at Gartravel (? name a bit blurred) Royal Lunatic Asylum in Partick. No parents details were given and the death was registered by the attendant. This would be when Annie was about 6 years old.

I tried to see if Ann Boyd (the Grandmother) had a daughter called Mary (the sister of Jessie) who maybe adopted Annie and married or assumed the name of Oliphant. No luck yet still looking.

If true and it seems from the records that it is then it is quite a tragic tale made even more tragic as I found the death of Annie's brother John on 24/08/1882 at age 16.

Hope this gives you food for thought.

Tom

Jean, you'd do best to start your own thread with all the info you have about your Dorothy Oliphant (where she was born, who she married and where, etc.).

Evie THANK YOU SO MUCH!!!!!

Everything fits so far and I have found out so much more information, I can't thank you enough!!!!

Kirstie, oh isn't that funny! What a small world!

Cheers

Rachelle

Genealogy karma, Kristie. ;)

Enjoy, Rachelle!

Oh my goodness, thank you so much for all your wonderful help!!!

I'll sit down and reread it all after printing it out, but gee they don't make it easy with the names sometimes!!!!

Thanks I'm so excited now I might actually get some sleep tonight!

well done EvieBeavie,

i came back to check it all out after you had said you solved it and am astonished - i'm a Dale and my family originate from Ayr!?!?!
very freaky will have to copy all this and check it against my notes/ maybes pile - after obtaining some certs.
i can't believe it - you may have actually helped me and neither of us realised it.

The person who has Mary Boyd 1843 also has

Mary Dale
1867
Dalry, Ayrshire, , Scotland

A sister of Matthew 1866?


The person who has Mary Dale 1867 also has:

William Dale
1865
Dalry, Ayrshire

and

James Dale
1863
Dalry, Ayrshire, , Scotland


1871 in Dalry:

William Dale 42
Anne Dale 39
James Dale 8
William J Dale 6
Thomas McGill 28

James and William, and Matthew ("Dall"), are the only Dale children born 1860-1870 in Dalry in 1871.


There are no male Dales born 1830-1850 in / born in Dalry in 1871 or 1861.


And someone has

Annie Dale
1874
Dalry, Ayrshire, , Scotland

Might be worth a check. ... Ah, no, this would be her in 1901, with the 1871 household above:

William Dale 71
Annie Dale 67
William Dale 18
Annie Dale 24
John Dale 69 - brother, born Ireland c1832, hm.

The William and Anne Dale household (both born in Ireland) seem to be the only Dales in Dalry at any time up to 1901. Along with brother John, who is there in 1851:

Robert Muire 30
Jean Muire 28
Robert Muire 7
Agness Muire 5
Jean Muire 3
John Muire 1
Jean Jamieson 66
John Dale 22 - cousin
Hugh McLean 21

and whom we might consider pegging as father of Matthew 1866, son of Mary Boyd. He doesn't seem to be around in other years, unless he is the one married to Margaret in 61 and 71 and widowed, in Lanarkshire, in 81.

And someone here at GR has

Matthew Dale
1866
DALRY Ayrshire Scotland

in his tree!!!

And as well, someone (not the same person) has

Mary Boyd
1843
DALRY Ayrshire Scotland

1901:


Name: Matthew Dale
Age: 35
Estimated Birth Year: abt 1866
Relationship: Head
Spouse's name : Maggie
Where born: Dalry, Ayrsh
Occupation: House Painter

Registration Number: 610A
Registration district: Old Cumnock
Civil Parish: Old Cumnock
Town: O C
County: Ayrshire
Address: Lugar St
ED: 2
Household schedule number: 8
Line: 16
Roll: CSSCT1901_235

Matthew Dale 35
Maggie Dale 35
John Dale 17
Robert Dale 8
Matt G Dale 6
Wm Dale 4
Susanna Dale 5 mo


Rellies!!!