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jesus i only went for my tea and to visit an old family freind you lot are brilliant, right lets see if i can answer a few questions

quote eva
Are these your Thomas and Jane Whalley in 1851?

Name: Thomas Whalley
Age: 21
Estimated Birth Year: abt 1830
Relation: Head
Spouse's Name: Jane
Gender: Male
Where born: Heap, Lancashire, England

Ecclesiastical parish: St Luke
Civil Parish: Heap
County/Island: Lancashire
Registration district: Bury
Sub registration district: Birtle

Thomas Whalley 21
Jane Whalley 21
Elizebeth Whalley 2 Mo

yes eva they are my lot i have thomas and janes cert there are also some more sibblings to add to that lot
mary 1853, alfred 1854, william 1858, thomas 1862, ellen hannah1866,john james1866,david 1870, and george 1874

so i assume this is betty page?

Name: Thomas Whalley
Age: 11
Estimated Birth Year: abt 1830
Where born: Lancashire, England

Civil Parish: Rochdale
Hundred: Salford
County/Island: Lancashire

Registration district: Rochdale
>> Sub registration district: Castleton without the Borough

>> Betty Whalley 45
Martha Whalley 25
Mary Whalley 20
David Whalley 20
James Whalley 14
Thomas Whalley 11


Does "Castleton without the Borough" count............ yes it dose heywood has been in more sub districts than you can imagine

it seems like you have got me my match eva i did have some things penciled in but didnt say as i wanted to see if you came up with the same and you did although i didnt have as much info as you and i also had samual nuttal penciled in so top marks to you your a star, oh and i already have the marrage from the library for thomas and betty page it states fathers name as william i got this ages ago incase i made the link

my quick visit to a old family freind tonight was regarding the bennion maghee thing she said anyty nora (nora bennion had a sister called doris so thats another apart from my mum although she is quite old now and her mind wonders abit doris would have been called bennion and not ward she thinks, so i need a cert for martha mcghee/bennion or ward

think ive answered all if not just post god i wish you lot lived in my street ( whalley road by the way) cos i could do this all night (well if i knew how lol )

thankyou

neil.

If it does turn out that Betty Page was Thomas 1830's mother, you might find some Page rellies.

In 1851, there is this household in Castleton Without:

Mark Tenton 56
Hannah Tenton 57
Eliza Tenton 23 - daughter
Hannah Page 16 - all grandchildren down the list
James Page 11
William Page 9
Ellen Page 6
Betty Sanford 27 - daughter-in-law


The Page family in 1841 in Heywood (the only Pages there).

John Page 28
Alice Page 26
Henry Page 7
Hannah Page 5
Elizabeth Page 3
James Page 1

John born abt 1813 is likely a nephew of Betty Page who married Thomas Whalley in 1814.


But the relationships are a little complex. The Tentons are grandparents of the Page children in 1851, but this is likely the birth of granddaughter Hannah Page:

ANN PAGE
Christening: 10 JAN 1836 Heywood, Lancashire, England
Father: JOHN PAGE
Mother: ALICE MILLS

Maybe Alice's mother remarried to Tenton. Mind you -- the above is a submitted record, and could be wrong.

The same parents info is submitted for James 1839, e.g.


Anyhow, I would think that any Pages in the vicinity around those dates are closely related to Betty Page.

If she's yours. ;)

see, what did I tell you Neil - Evie is amazing, quite amazing!!!!

This is that Betty Whalley from the 1851 census:

Name: Betty Whalley
Age: 57
Estimated Birth Year: abt 1794
Relation: Head
Gender: Female
Where born: Heap, Lancashire, England

(The age in the 1841 census, 45, was rounded down.)


That would make her 20-21 at the time of the 1814 marriage Cynthia posted, that you are considering:

THOMAS WHALLEY
Spouse: BETTY PAGE Family
Marriage: 10 APR 1814 Saint Mary, Bury, Lancashire, England

The Martha Whalley in that 1841 household married Samuel Nuttall. This is the same household (how convenient of them to live together!) in 1851 in Heap / Heywood, very close to your Thomas and Jane:

Civil Parish: Heap
Ecclesiastical parish: St Luke
Town: Heywood
Registration district: Bury
Sub registration district: Birtle

Betty Whalley 57
Mary Whalley 32
David Whalley 28
William Whalley 2
> Samuel Nuttall 30
> Martha Nuttall 37
Thomas Nuttall 2 Mo
Edmund Warbutton 23 (lodger)


This is the marriage of Martha Whalley and Samuel Nuttall:

Marriages Sep 1849
Beckett Francis Bury 21 238
Greenhalgh Collinge Bury 21 238
[Haworth] * Bury 21 238
Haworth Alice Bury 21 238
Haworth Esther Bury 21 238
> Nuttall Samuel Bury 21 238
ORMEROD Betty Bury 21 238
> Whalley Martha Bury 21 238
Wolstenholme Thomas Bury 21 238


That marriage certificate (get out the credit card) would tell you who Martha's father was.

If it was Thomas, like your Thomas's father, you would seem to have a pretty good match.

Hang on, I looked back at the first page and you said

"all of the family so far have come from heywood (heap) rochdale (casleton further) or bury"

and I recalled "Castleton" from that Thomas in 1841 I was looking at:


Name: Thomas Whalley
Age: 11
Estimated Birth Year: abt 1830
Where born: Lancashire, England

Civil Parish: Rochdale
Hundred: Salford
County/Island: Lancashire

Registration district: Rochdale
>> Sub registration district: Castleton without the Borough

>> Betty Whalley 45
Martha Whalley 25
Mary Whalley 20
David Whalley 20
James Whalley 14
Thomas Whalley 11


Does "Castleton without the Borough" count?


This *could* be the baptism of daughter Martha Whalley in that household:

Matty Whally
Christening: 25 JUL 1814 Heywood, Lancashire, England
Father: Thomas Whally
Mother: Betty Whally
Batch No.: C027924

She's the only Whalley (or variant) in that batch, so the family could have moved after she was born. Or the batch only goes up to around the date of her baptism.


Here's one who could be the next daughter, Mary:

Mary Whaley
Christening: 10 JAN 1819 Heywood, Lancashire, England
Father: Thomas Whaley
Mother: Betty Whaley
Batch No.: C012957

There's an Alice 1825 in that batch -- she could still have been part of the same family and not survived childhood.

Are these your Thomas and Jane Whalley in 1851?

Name: Thomas Whalley
Age: 21
Estimated Birth Year: abt 1830
Relation: Head
Spouse's Name: Jane
Gender: Male
Where born: Heap, Lancashire, England

Ecclesiastical parish: St Luke
Civil Parish: Heap
County/Island: Lancashire
Registration district: Bury
Sub registration district: Birtle

Thomas Whalley 21
Jane Whalley 21
Elizebeth Whalley 2 Mo


Looks about right for names, location and match with an 1850 marriage.


I don't know where to look for him in 1841. There's no matching Thomas Whalley in Bury. There are two or three Whalley households in Bury, but no Thomas to match yours.

If he can found, he will (we hope) be with his mother and/or father, to confirm his parents' names.

There's one in Rochdale with mother Betty ... but I'll bet he's not the only one ... You can't use parents' names to search the 1841, so it's a tedious process of looking at alllll the Thomas Whalley-s (or Walley) of the right-ish age, and knowing where to look when there are so many is kinda important.

yes that my aunty nora my mums half sister dont have any info on her though

do we think the marrage of betty page to my thomas whalley is the right one ?

i dont mind buying certs as long as its the right one lol so i1l go get the one for the marrage of martha bennion nee mcghee to albert c ward and let you all no the out come

thankyou all for you input its very much appreciated

neil.

Do we have this?

Births Sep 1913
Bennion Nora - McGhee - Bury - 8c 1047

Daughter of Edmund Bennion and Martha McGhee, it seems.

Well, you need to get one of Martha's marriage certificates then! Preferably both! I mean - all three! (oops, sorry, only two marriages after all.)

You need to know at least what she said for her father's name when she married. It may not have been true (these things often weren't), but at least you'll know what she said.

That one with father James and mother Catherine is looking good, but if her marriage certificate says her father was Xavier, it would be no go.

The universal advice: you have to start with what you know. You know whom she married and when, so you get the certificates and see what it says for her age and her father's name (and his occupation).

And you use that to go back -- for instance, to see whether the father on the Martha Magee birth cert is the same as on the Martha McGhee marriage certificates.

We all gotta get out the credit card at some point and buy those certificate things!

quote eb
I forget whether you said - do you have any of Martha's marriage certificates and do they state a father's name?

no sorry eva all i have on this side is mums birth cert ?

now im really confused

neil.

1881

Name: James Mc Gee
Age: 42
Estimated Birth Year: abt 1839
Relation: Head
Spouse's Name: Catherine
Gender: Male
Where born: Lanarkshire, Scotland

Civil Parish: Heap
County/Island: Lancashire
Country: England

Street address: 15 Hartley St
Condition as to marriage: Married

Occupation: Cotton Weaver

Registration district: Bury
Sub registration district: Heywood
ED, institution, or vessel: 10
Neighbors: View others on page
Household Members:
Name Age

James Mc Gee 42
Catherine Mc Gee 32 Ireland
Mary A. Mc Gee 11
James Mc Gee 6
Catherine Mc Gee 1
John Harty 40
Maria Sherdon 30

Another Martha I might consider, in 1901:

Name: Martha McGee
Age: 18
Estimated Birth Year: abt 1883
Relation: Relative (Other Relative)
Gender: Female
Where born: Ireland

Civil Parish: Bootle
Ecclesiastical parish: St John
County/Island: Lancashire
Registration district: West Derby

E Guffett 39
Jane Guffett 37
Annie Guffett 9
Jane Guffett 3
Edward Guffett 8
* Emil McGee 41
William McGee 20
Martha McGee 18

It's Emily, and she's married but no husband present, and the McGees are actually in a separate household from the Guffetts at 2 Green Rd. Emily, William and Martha are all identified as Lodger.


I forget whether you said - do you have any of Martha's marriage certificates and do they state a father's name?

Neil

I think EB had your Albert, Chatterley is quite an unusual middle name.

1891

Name: Martha Magee
Age: 10
Estimated Birth Year: abt 1881
Relation: Daughter
Mother's Name: Cathrine
Gender: Female
Where born: Heywood, Lancashire, England

Civil Parish: Heap
Ecclesiastical parish: St James
Town: Heywood
County/Island: Lancashire
Country: England

Registration district: Bury
Sub registration district: Heywood
ED, institution, or vessel: 5
Neighbors: View others on page
Household Members:
Name Age

Cathrine Magee 40
James Magee 16
Martha Magee 10

just checked out the matha you found ann yes it would fit and i just found this albert
WARD Albert 1888 Castleton Further Rochdale Lancashire CF/38/257
which is a bit neare her age unless she had a toy boy the fast cat, not sure how to link them now any help please

neil

Okay, I can't resist.

Births Dec 1887
Ward Albert Chatterley Bury 8c 546


So since Martha first married in 1902 (Bennion), Albert was likely a bit younger than her.

yeh thats a point maybe the registrar just spelt it as she thought or the other way around