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What's this Allbones and why did it ring a bell -- I mean it did with me?

Just all for the pot


1861

Name: Ellen Ritchie
Age: 19
Estimated Birth Year: abt 1842
Relation: Daughter
Father's Name: Robert
Mother's Name: Hannah
Gender: Female
Where born: Goodnestone, Kent, England

Civil Parish: Goodnestone
Registration district: Eastry

>> Robert Ritchie 50 - gardener
Hannah Ritchie 50
Ellen Ritchie 19
Alexander Ritchie 12
William Ritchie 9
Henry W Plumptre 25


Very common for children of unmarried women to name maternal grandfathers as fathers on marriage.

Closest I find


Births Dec 1874
Richer Albert Edward Greenwich 1d 826


1851 ........

Name: Ellen Richer
Age: 12
Estimated Birth Year: abt 1839
Relation: Servant
Gender: Female
Where born: Heaver, Kent, England

Civil Parish: Bromley

Henry Reed 26
Emma Reed 26
Henry Reed 2
Martha Reed 8 Mo
Ellen Richer 12

oh ho ho
allbones in the pot too?
this one will take more than my small skills too unravel i think so
bye ee

Stop that, Sue! Vivienne found that marriage. She is exceedingly clever indeed.


oh - you mean the Andrews-Ritchie marriage. Just a bone for the pot!

But the thing is, Robert Barnard and Ellen are together in 1871, before Albert's birth:

Name: Ellen Bornick
Age: 28
Estimated Birth Year: abt 1843
Relation: Wife
Spouse's Name: Robert
Where born: Deptford, Kent, England

Name: Robert Bornick
Age: 39
Estimated Birth Year: abt 1832
Relation: Head
Spouse's Name: Ellen
Where born: Deptford, Kent, England

Ecclesiastical parish: St Nicholas
Town: Deptford
Registration district: Greenwich
Civil Parish: St Nicholas Deptford

Robert Bornick 39
Ellen Bornick 28

(It's really obviusly Barnard)

EvieBeavie - I love that marriage!!! You are soooooooo clever!!

My omelette is burning!!!!

Blimey, how quick your minds work - well done!!!

I'm just going to eat my dinner but will be back soon & I'll try to have a dig around too but I bet I'm not as fast you!!

Paula must be pleased as well

A great big thank you, Sue

For the pot, then:

Marriages Dec 1865
Allbones Rebecca Greenwich 1d 1262
? Andrews Ellen Greenwich 1d 1262
? Ritchie Andrew Greenwich 1d 1262
Woods Peter Greenwich 1d 1262

i have been working you cheeky blighter evie
studying all your findings after my initial find!!

Oh my oh my oh my! I certainly am doing well on these Barnards! I think I just sorted Paula's too.

But wait -- I wasn't the one who discovered that Richie marriage, was I? No - that was Vivienne! A quick study, Vivienne. ;)

So, my assumption would be that Ellen, "wife" of Robert Barnard, was Ellen Richie, and Albert was her son. And Robert Barnard may or may not have been his father. Richie could have been Ellen's surname or her husband's surname, and Albert born outside marriage, in a first marriage or after the breakdown of that marriage.

Richie would be his real name, but he was always called Barnard because of Ellen & Robert's domestic relationship, Robert being his stepfather or possibly real father. This is really exceedingly common. But he used his "official" name when he married, and then reverted back to what he considered to be his name thereafter.

I have to get some work done -- will have a poke around for Ellen and Albert later on. Meanwhile - Vivienne?? Congratulations, and get back to work!

EvieBeavie - are you there? I need you!!!!

The marriage certificate has arrived and it is indeed my Ellen Marsland!!
Details are -
Marriage in Rotherhithe (which is close to Deptford)
Ellen Marsland, age 21, Spinster, Father:Edward Marsland, Fire wood dealer
Albert Bernard Richie, age 24, Bachelor, Sheet Iron Worker, Father:Robert Richie, Blacksmith

I know its my Ellen because the witnesses are Edward & Paulina Marsland & Ellen's father was Edward (who was a Fire wood dealer in 1901 census) and her Mother & Sister were Paulina which is a fairly unusual name.

Now the question is, is Albert Richie really Albert Barnard? (Like you suggested EvieBeavie). Albert Barnard's Father was Robert - Albert Richie has given his father as Robert. However, Robert Barnard was a Dock labourer in all of the census not a Blacksmith!!!

If its him, why would he have changed his name to get married but 4 years later in 1901, he is back to calling himself & his family Barnard. Indeed his first child, Margaret born in 1898 was registered as Barnard - would it help to buy her birth cert?

It still doesn't explain why I can't find his birth anywhere & I can't get the birth cert of any siblings because I don't think that he had any!!!!

I'd be really interested in what you think about it?

I'm so used to Barnards (and of course just about anybody else you can imagine) hiding under bizarre names that whenever possible, I don't even include a surname in the search. ;)

Given name (Ancestry's less likely to mess that up, but that doesn't mean they won't have), place of residence, approx. year and place of birth, parent's/parents' name(s) ... for 1881, occupation ... all are often more likely to work at Ancestry than sticking to a surname!

Just book marking this as I want to know that answer too. Had ancestors from Frenches Fields and Stowage just around the corner from your Barnards.

Right, I've ordered the Marsland - Richie marriage certificate and await with baited breath!!! Will let you know what it says as soon as I receive it.

Thank you Christine, but I also looked under Bernard & Burnard but Albert wasn't there either!!

Sue

Hi Sue
I am also looking fo a family of this name,
I have found records with a number of variants that do not necessarily come up with a soundex search.
Burnand Barnard or Bernand
Mine are in Bethnal Green and Shadwell.
Just a thought for you.
Christine

How about deaths for Robert and Ellen (Sr)?

Deaths Mar 1910
Barnard Robert Francis 73 Greenwich 1d 511

Deaths Mar 1921
Barnard Ellen 76 Greenwich 1d 1067

?

That would make him born c1837, and her born c1845.

Sometimes ages at birth are nice and accurate, more so than censuses. Sometimes they're wildly off.

I was looking for middle names/initials that might help, particularly with Ellen, but nothing there for her, if that's her.

I don't see either in the 1911 census.

Well -- I really would order the Albert Bernard Richie - Ellen Marsland marriage. If all it does is rule it out. Sometimes you do have to rule out decisively and move away. ;) And hopefully find another direction to move in.

If there were any other live possibilities, I'd say go for them, but I just am not seeing any!

Oh my word, gypsies!!! I'll never find them!!!

Sorry I didn't come back sooner EvieBeavie but I've been deliberating what to do ..... and I've had a horrible cold!!! I still haven't ordered the Ellen Marsland/Albert Richie marriage cert yet as I decided to wait to look Albert & Ellen Barnard up on the 1911 census which I have now done.

They are definately there in Pender Street, Deptford. Albert is a Sheet Iron Worker (would a gypsy do that?) and it def says that they have been married for 14 years. It also says that they have had 10 children but 5 of them had died - thats sad!!

We have found all of the Barnard's in all census, haven't we? I think, therefore, its unlikely that they were gypsies because they didn't move about too much.

What shall I do?

This is your thread, Paula:

http://www.genesreunited.co.uk/boards.asp?wci=thread&tk=1123456

(the other is a duplicate)

I'd be very interested if you want to post more there about the Barnard - Roma bit.