Find Ancestors

HI Sue

I dont have a ALbert William Barnard on my tree, but I have had the same problems. I have been researching BURNARD and found a lot of them listed as BERNARD and BARNARD. It might be worth you trying the same.

Happy Hunting

ALison

Is this just a red herring?

Marriage June Q 1880 in St Saviour

Robert Barnard & Sarah Ann HOLLAND!!!

Aha. I looked at the household in Gloucester in 1881 but hadn't gone any farther with it ... because the new printer arrived and had to take 2 hours to install ...

Yes, that does indeed look like your Albert Sr, husband of Eliza Allen Holland (I'd found that marriage and then her death).

The sequence looks pretty solid. And yes, the birth cert for daughter Eleanor would be a clincher as to that relationship.

The link is still missing, of course. But the fact that your Albert married as ... what was it, Richie? him probably only ever have heard it and never seen it; he was an infant when he was taken in by the Barnards ... and the explanation on the death cert for Ellen Barnard wife of Robert, well, it's as close as a lot of us get. ;)

Now stop asking me -- Viv is the one who found that marriage!

And we still have no idea of what the connection between the Barnard couple and the Richer couple was. (I just had wild theories about it.)

There might have been no connection. Albert might have simply been placed in an institution, and they took him from there.

If we could only figure out who Ellen Barnard "wife" of Robert was ...

Sorry to post on here again but I need to sound this out with you.......

1871 Census - Albert, Eliza & Helena Richer (Albert age 28 & born Rotherhithe)

1875 - Eliza Allen Richer died

1881 census - Albert & Eleanor (+ nephew) in Gloucester (Albert age 38 & born Rotherhithe)

1891 Census - Albert & Eleanor in Gloucester (Albert age 48 & born Rotherhithe)

1898 - Eleanor Richer married Albert Williams in Merthyr Tydfil
(another Albert!!!)

1901 Census - Albert, Eleanor Williams & children living in Merthyr Tydfil with Albert Richer age 58 born Rotherhithe

How about if I buy Eleanor's birth certificate to check if her parents are the same as Albert's ie Eliza nee Holland? If the parents are the same then it would really point to Albert senior giving baby Albert away wouldn't it?

Ooops, nearly forgot .......

Marriage in Greenwich Dec Q 1869
Albert Richer
Eliza Allen Holland .....................

I've been having a look as well & what do you think of this EvieBeavie? I need to ask because I think I may a bit biased as I want it to be my Albert!!!!

Sure enough, Eliza Allen Richer died in Greenwich (probably Deptford) in
March Q 1875

1871 census in Camberwell shows
Albert Richer age 28 Labourer Born Rotherhithe
Eliza Richer age 30 Dressmaker Born Somers Town, Middsx
Helena Richer age 6 months Born Brixton

Then Eliza could've had Albert in 1874 & a couple of months later she died.

Albert was adopted by Ellen & Robert, they had no children of their own.

1881 - Gloucester!!
Albert Richer age 38 Widow a painter Born Rotherhithe
Eleanor Richer age 10 Daughter Born Herne Hill
Edward Albert Richer age 14 Nephew Born Poplar

First of all I thought could Edward Albert be my Albert but he wouldn't be 14, he'd be 6. So I found the birth of Edward Albert in Poplar in June Q 1866 & then found him in 1871 census -

William Richer age 35 Labourer Born Rotherhithe
Mary Richer age 37 Wife Born Ipswich
Edward A Richer age 4 Son Born Poplar
Mary A Richer age 2 Daughter Born Gloucester

Was William the brother of Albert (Senior)? On checking the 1851 census in Rotherhithe, it would seem so -

Elizabeth Richer Widow age 56 Licensed Victualler B Hepworth, Suffolk
William Richer Son age 15 Born Rotherhithe
Francis Richer Son age 12 Born Rotherhithe
Charles Richer Son age 11 Born Rotherhithe
Albert Richer Son age 8 Born Rotherhithe
William Tester Nephew age 18 Born Pimlico

Did Albert move to Gloucester with his daughter Eleanor when his wife died as his brother William was already living there but maybe he couldn't cope with a tiny baby & let Ellen & Robert adopt him?

Did William & Mary die (I can't find their deaths) and so Albert had his nephew live with him. His niece, Mary Ann, was a 12 year old servant in Gloucester in 1881 census.

I don't suppose I will ever be able to confirm that Albert Richer, son of Eliza & Albert is mine will I? But everything does point that way doesn't it?

Maybe I should stop researching Barnard line now & switch to Richer & Holland??

I'd be really interested to hear what you all think?

EvieBeavie - thanks for explanation about the 'burying the body' and, of course, I can see why Ellen had to explain how she was next of kin. Good job she did really cos it certainly helped me!! Thank you so much

I think the note about burial and the reason for stating the relationship could be that there was a question asked about relationship, for releasing the body, and Ellen gave the whole explanation, which resulted in her possibly not being next of kin, so a notation was added as to who she was and the purpose for which the body was released.

There's an old common law saying: "there is no property in a dead body". Nobody owns it or has rights in it, but next of kin have an obligation to dispose of a body in a proper manner and are entitled to decide that manner. So the notations could be to establish that she was next of kin and was going to fulfil the obligation.

I couldn't resist.

The mother of that Albert Richer was actually Eliza Allen Richer, and sure enough, she died very shortly after he was born.

What a stroke of luck -- a death certificate that actually tells you something above and beyond!

So this makes the second Barnard descendant I have sorted out into being not a Barnard descendant at all. ;)

(The other was from a family in Bristol in 1841 that I was desperately hoping was my own Barnards, i.e. possibly the mother of my grx2 grandparent in that line, and her other children. I found a descendant of one of the children here at GR! Except, when I worked my special magic, I determined that her gr-grfather wasn't the son of her Barnard, he was the son of the Barnard's wife born before their marriage. Hurray, no family for me ...)

You start the hunt for those potential parents when you get a chance now.

well done sue!
going away for a few days but will pop in sometime to see how it goes
viv

We've cracked it, I think!!!! You are all so clever!!!!

Certificates arrived this morning - the birth cert for Albert Richer may or may not be the correct one. Its details are:

Albert Edward Richer 29th August 1874
Parents: Eliza Ellen Richer formerly Holland & Albert Richer
Address: 34 Church Street, Deptford
Father's occupation: Boiler Maker

At first, I thought that this was the wrong cert but what I didn't tell you was that I also ordered the death certs for Robert Barnard (1910) & Ellen Barnard (1921)

The first one I opened was Robert's, details are:

Robert Francis Barnard, age 73
1st February 1910
Occupation: General Labourer
Address: 26 Pender Street, Deptford
Informant: Ellen Barnard, Daughter in law (this is Ellen Marsland, Albert's wife)
Address of Informant: 10 Pender Street, Deptford

Now I know that this is correct cert because I have Albert, Ellen & children living in 10 Pender Street in the 1911 census!!

Next cert was Ellen's death in 1921, details:

17th March 1921 @ 48 Vanbrugh Hill
Age 76
Address: 31 Edward Street, Deptford
Widow of Robert Barnard (a cattle boat cleaner - classy job!!)
Informant: Ellen Barnard of 10 Pender Street
- so it must be Albert's wife Ellen because its 10 Pender Street again!!!

Then under informant's name it says 'causing the body to be buried', what does that mean??

Then - now, Evie Beavie sit down & get ready for this .............................

On the side there is a note that says ' The Husband of the informant was adopted by the deceased and took her surname' !!!!!!!!!!!!!!! Yippee!!!!!!!!

So, Ellen & presumably Robert, adopted Albert !!!!!!

Maybe, therefore, the birth cert for Albert Richer is his? I guess I need to see if his parents - Eliza & Albert Richer died, do you agree?

I haven't had time to look yet because the grandchildren are here today & they're making cakes - say no more!!!!! Once my kitchen has been tidied up a bit, I'll have a look for the deaths!!!

A massive big thank you for pointing me in the right direction

I'll be back later, Sue xx

Just to let you know that I've ordered the birth cert of Albert Richer & will report back next week as soon as I receive it

Thank you again, Sue

Piper, of course, I'm usually a little better at old handwriting.

No, I was only looking at her because she was supposedly named Rich*. Now that she isn't, she's out.

Yeah. I'd get the birth certificate for Albert Richer. ;)

I think maybe ............

Ellen Richer in 1851 census is Ellen Piper

The only possible Ellen to be born in that period in the right area is

Ellen Elizabeth Marden Piper
Dec Q 1838
Sevenoaks (Hever is in this Reg District)

In the 1841 census, she is living with her parents in Brasted which is just a few miles from Hever.

Do you think that's her EvieBeavie? Still not sure what that proves tho?
Shall I just order Albert Edward Richer's birth cert even though he was Albert William Barnard or Albert Bernard Richie?

I kind of like the Richer ones.


Births Dec 1874
Richer Albert Edward Greenwich 1d 826


1851

Name: Ellen Richer
Age: 12
Estimated Birth Year: abt 1839
Relation: Servant
Gender: Female
Where born: Heaver, Kent, England
Civil Parish: Bromley


Who could be entirely unrelated. ;)

Oh ... and except that I don't know what that 1851 census says, but by me it sure isn't "Richer". There's actually no chance in the world that it's "Richer". Pilver, maybe.


Albert Edward Richer doesn't appear in any record -- b, m, d, census -- after that birth.

Just to let you know that we can rule out the Ellen Ritchie from Goodnestone, Kent. There is a GR member researching her & she has kindly confirmed that Ellen was in Gloucestershire in 1871 & married Charles Dobson Smith in 1881.

Thats one out of that big pot...............

I think that you are both clever - and Vivienne can speak Welsh!!!

Now there is so much in the pot, I don't know what to think but I'll try to work it out!!!

Allbones-Barnard?
http://www.genesreunited.co.uk/boards.asp?wci=thread&tk=1098561

And that one is yet more Mitchells in Sussex, a name recently in the news ...
http://www.genesreunited.co.uk/boards.asp?wci=thread&tk=1127505&px=2
Quick, fetch Lindsey. ;)

I knooooow. Why are we noticing Allbones?

allbones

Marriages Dec 1865
Allbones Rebecca Greenwich 1d 1262
? Andrews Ellen Greenwich 1d 1262
? Ritchie Andrew Greenwich 1d 1262
Woods Peter Greenwich 1d 1262