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Oh, Jean -- one thing you can do with that wrong birth cert is go to FreeBMD and add a postem to the entry giving the parents' names and offering the certificate.

But ... you have a birth cert that says he was a painter and paper hanger, and a marriage certificate (30ish years later) saying he was a docker?

So ... are you going to get the William Williams - Mary Richardson 1894 marriage certificate??

*If* it's him, it will give us his father's name; at least we can circularly try to figure out whether it's him ...

Received the wrong birth certificate. So if anybody wants it these are the details:
BIRTH CERTIFICATE
born /29th OCTOBER 1909
Name / EMMA WILLIAMS
Fathers name/ FREDERICK ARTHUR WILLIAMS
Mother name/ EMILY WILLIAMS.

Just e.mail me and i will forwards it to whoever.

I now have my Mum and Dads wedding cert. And it states that her father William Henry Williams. occupation Docker their address at that date was 41 Denmark Street Waterloo Liverpool. (Mum/dad were married on the 20 Dec 1930)

Hopefully I will receive mum's sisters birth cert in the next day or so. And then I may gain other info.

I just thought by getting my Mum(Louisa Williams born 1903) OK . marriage cert.dated 20 Dec 1930 would tell me where they lived at that date. Then maybe another name may show up that I could research . Just thought it might open up some other lead. Long shot I know. Will be glad when the 1911 census come out.
Thanks for helping me. What would we do without all you wonderful people.

Cheers Jean.

Just to clear it up -- we were talking about the William Williams - Mary Richardson 1894 marriage certificate, Jean. Your mum's certificate isn't going to tell us anything about who William was!

... Er, is it? I confess to getting confused ...

Ok Thanks to all of you for your help. i have order my mothers marriage cert. and her sister Emma should have them soon. At least I will get address's and a few other details. Finger crossed again.

Will be back when I get them.

Cheers and thanks again

Jean

Thing to do seems to be to order that Williams-Richardson marriage certificate. At least that will give a father's name and occupation, and an age. At present there just isn't enough to go on to distinguish him from the other 745 William Williamses in the censuses!

sorry to confuse you. It was just a comment that Oldham & Preston were the 2 areas which list the mothers maiden name on the lancashirebmd site long before the GRO regs index started including it.(1912)

so it looks like the Wm / Mary Richardson marriage of 1894 might be the right one.

Not Quite sure what you meant by the last message..

I have found out that William had two sisters Mary and Lizzie. also he lived in Everton at some stage. My cousin has just informed me her Mum, which is one of William and Marys daughters was born in Everton, 3rd Nov 1906, her name was Emma Williams (also Mary name may have been Richardson)

Cheers

unfortunately not - she is not there but L'pool is an area where coverage is a bit patchy. Now if she had been born in Oldham or Preston......

btw --

"one of Mary and Williams sons was called William Richard Williams born Sept 1902 b.West Derby."

*His* birth cert will give Mary's name for sure!

Except ... these are the Sep Q William Williams births in W Derby:

Williams William Cernyw W. Derby 8b 612
Williams William Edward W. Derby 8b 418

and these are the Dec Q births:

WILLIAMS William W. Derby 8b 296
WILLIAMS William Ernest W. Derby 8b 266
Williams William Robert W. Derby 8b 667

?

Duh. I really can add and subtract. Most of the time. Yeesh!

Oh, and 3 in 1881 makes him a little young for an 1894 marriage, lol.

This is the William, Builder's Labourer, in 1901:

Name: William Williams
Age: 33
Estimated Birth Year: abt 1868
Relation: Head
Spouse's Name: Mary
Where born: Liverpool, Lancashire, England

This is daughter Georgina (thank goodness for names that aren't Mary or Ann):

Births Dec 1899
WILLIAMS Georgina W. Derby 8b 578

Her birth cert would give her mother's name, for ruling out if nothing else.

Is that something that that Lacashire bmd site on line will reveal?

perhaps he was unemployed in his true trade and was working as a labourer

just noticed age 3 in 1881 makes him 23 in 1901! so probably not the right 1881

Re apprenticeship etc -- or he could have married rather late. Born 1875 he would have married at 19ish. But he would be been *at least* that age, anyhow.

Ah, and I missed that the HOH was James, lol.

Hey, his age (3 in 1881) matches up with the William with Mary (33 in 1901) I was looking at!

Their daughter Mary E is a tad old for an 1894 marriage maybe ...

What's the chance a journeyman painter was called a Builder's Labourer on the census? Not too high, I imagine.

making several assumptions here
if the Wm / Mary Richardson marriage is correct in 1894 then he would probably be out of his apprenticeship. Say his apprenticeship was for 5 yrs he should be on the 1891 census as an apprentice.
Assuming it was for 5 yrs and he started at age 12/14 that puts his birth about 1875.

sorry missed putting it was also 1881 in the 2nd one and it was the son Wm's father's occupation I was looking at, because unless Wm was telling porkies if he was a journey man painter in 1903 he would also have been either a journeyman or an apprentice painter in 1901 and as father often followed son into trade....