Find Ancestors

me again, from page 3 of the thread:

"How about Mary Richardson?

Marriages Jun 1894
Baker William James Liverpool 8b 234
LUCAS Fanny Liverpool 8b 234
? Richardson Mary Liverpool 8b 234
? Williams William Henry Liverpool 8b 234

That's the only candidate in that area in that time period."

and lancashire ann confirmed that William Willaims did marry Mary Richardson, from the lancashirebmd site.

So you want that certificate to get

William's age
William's occupation
William's father's name
William's father's occupation

also for Mary, and also address. And marital status, just in case of previous marriages.

Off you go now!

So we're looking for parents William and Mary and children:

the eldest two were called Emily and Florrie
not sure what order the others came in but William Richard was born 1902 I am sure of that.
I also think Maggie and Mary were born before 1903 the others I think were younger than my Mum as far as I know.

All right. I searched for Emily Williams with parents William and Mary, and Flor*, ditto.

Sometimes Ancestry is just a pig. I wanted to search for any Williams born 1895-1901 with parents Mary and William, and it just ignores the parents' names.

Probably best to wait for the marriage certificate, which will at least give us William's and Mary's ages!

Wow!! Thank you so much. I will now check that out and send for marriage cert.

What would I do with out all your help.

BEFORE I GO... CAN I WISH YOU ALL A VERY HAPPY CHRISTMAS

cheers

Jean

What would you do without all our help?

Well, have a bunch more money to spend on Christmas prezzies, I suspect. ;)

Happy holidays to you too!

Hi Again,
Just checked that marriage out but that would make my grand father only 14/15 when he got married ??????
What do you think.

Cheers....

Whoa - we haven't established who your grandfather WAS, have we??

I'm not understanding ... you know he had kids born before 1901 ... so an 1894 marriage is reasonable.

How are you knowing how old he was? I thought that was one of the things we needed to know in order to figure out WHO he was!

Just trying to have a look at 107 Townsend Lane (Louisa's address when your mum was born) in 1881 to see what sort of area / household it was ...

107 seems not to have existed or been occupied, but there are 365 people on Townsend Lane. Flipping through them looking for something close to 107, I did run across Mr. Duckworth Birtwistle.

Just had to share that ...

Numbers on Townsend Lane in 1881 skip from 83 to 123. Seems to be a prosperous area -- a shopkeeper, a grocer, a licensed victualler, a manager, mariners, some households with domestic servants.

I've tried tracing a few of the 1881 households forward to 1901, but none of them seem to have stayed put. Trying for 1891, and then forward to 1901, is a possibility.

Or, since you're in a spending mood, you could go to

http://www.1901censusonline.com

and search by address -- 107 Townsend Lane was occupied in 1901, and you could see who's there.

There are two likely-looking Louisa Johnsons in W Derby in 1901.

The father of one is an agricultural supplement manufacturer (?).

I like the other one.



Name: Louisa Johnson
Age: 16
Estimated Birth Year: abt 1885
Relation: Daughter
Father's Name: Thomas
Mother's Name: Margaret
Where born: Liverpool, Lancashire, England

Civil Parish: West Derby
County/Island: Lancashire

Street address: 7 Helena St
Occupation: Waitress @ Inn

Registration district: West Derby

>> Thomas Johnson 48 - House Painter
Margaret Johnson 42
Ada Johnson 24
Louisa Johnson 16
Thomas Johnson 14
William Johnson 13
Joseph Johnson 11
Henry Johnson 9
Peter Johnson 7
Norah Johnson 3

I have previously checked out 107 Townsend Lane for 1901 and no names had any conections with my family names.

Hi XmasEvieBeavie.
Going back to my Grandfather William Henry Williams. I do know he was born 6th March 1879/80 and he died 1 March 1951 death reg west derby. his wife Mary Williams (formery Richardson) born 20th March 1880/81 died 10th September 1934 death reg west derby.

That is why I thought my grandfather was to young to be married in 1894.

Hope i didn't confuse you.

Well, it does confuse me -- because people born approx 1879/1880 really just couldn't have married in 1894!

But they also wouldn't likely have had several children before 1903, as you seem to believe they did.

Unless there was a very youthful pregnancy involved, and an early marriage with parental permission or whatever it took. It's possible.

"I do know he was born 6th March 1879/80 and he died 1 March 1951 death reg west derby. his wife Mary Williams (formery Richardson) born 20th March 1880/81 died 10th September 1934 death reg west derby."

That doesn't really make sense. Where are the birth dates coming from? Ages on death certificates, if that's it, might not be reliable.

How long have you had this record of Mary's surname??

1890-1910, there are potentially 3 William Williams marriages to Mary Richardson:

Marriages Jun 1894
Williams William Henry Liverpool 8b 234

Marriages Dec 1898
Williams William Chester 8a 693

Marriages Dec 1910
Williams William Easington 10a 777


Only one looks like yours!

Recenty received my aunts birth cert. (her daughter told me her mum was born in Everton and Grandmothers name was Richardson) , So I applied for the birth cert and it confirmed all the details.

I know their birth/death dates as my sister told me they are on the graves stones. I have checked the death dates out and they are reg West Derby.

I also know for sure they had a son called William (Richard ?) Williams born 1902, Also without any doubt had at least two daughters before 1902 Emily and Florrie. I know this without any doubt.

Cheers
Jean

The thing here is, you know what you have been told. You don't know whether it's *true*!!

It could be that Emily or Florrie was a child of Mary Richardson before their marriage. Or of William's from a previous relationship or marriage. Or a sibling's child.

If the dates of birth are from gravestones, I have no idea how they could be 1879 *or* 1880. Does the gravestone not state a *year*??

Information on a gravestone or death certificate is only as good as the knowledge of the person who provided it, who may not have had a birth certificate to go on.


I have only found one Flor* Williams in Lancashire born 1896-1901 with parents William and Mary in the 1901 census. I think it's probably already in this thread, but this is the record:

Name: William H Welster
[William H Webster] - I corrected the name last week
Age: 32
Estimated Birth Year: abt 1869
Relation: Head
Spouse's Name: Mary
Where born: Matlock, Derbyshire, England
Civil Parish: Toxteth Park

There are Williams children in the household, identified as children of the head:

William H Welster 32 - butcher manager
Mary Welster 36
William J Welster 4
Charles H Welster 6 months
Edith Williams 16
Thomas Williams 9
Annie Williams 7
Florrie Williams 5


They don't resemble your people.


For Emily, we have:

Name: William Williams
Age: 30
Estimated Birth Year: abt 1871
Relation: Head
Spouse's Name: Mary
Where born: Liverpool
Civil Parish: Liverpool

William Williams 30 - coal dealer
Mary Williams 25
Emily Williams 2
Thomson Curry 14
Thomas Mc Donald 48


There's a possibility, if Florrie wasn't born yet. But the William and Mary are older than you are saying. And William's occupation doesn't fit your information.


Something is screwy somewhere! The Williams-Richardson marriage certificate *might* sort things out, if it either confirms something you know or is completely inconsistent with it -- or if it is consistent / inconsistent with a possible household in the 1901 census.

OK, I have sent for the marriage certificate, so i will let you know if i have any luck.

Cheers Jean

I have receieved the marriage cert. with the following details.

Marriage. 15th April 1894. William Henry William 21 years old Labourer, Lived 4 Bolton Street, fathers name, Richard Williams, Labourer.

Mary Richardson 18years old, Spinster also lived at 4 Bolton Street,Liverpool, fathers name James Richarson, Labourer.

Not quite sure where Bolton Street was and haven't been able to trace any other info re: their parents or address.
Can anyone offer any help.

Cheers Jean

Well here's a household in 1881 who fits that William -- the census was taken in the same month as they married in 1894, so age 7 in 1881 could be slightly off from age 21 in 1894. What was the legal minimum age for marriage?


Name: William Williams
Age: 7
Estimated Birth Year: abt 1874
Relation: Son
Father's Name: Richard
Mother's Name: Mary
Where born: Lpool, Lancashire, England


Civil Parish: Toxteth Park
County/Island: Lancashire
Street address: 36 Combermere St

Richard Williams 38 - occupation Labourer
Mary Williams 37
Richard Williams 11
John Williams 10
Margt. Williams 9
William Williams 7
Louisa Williams 6
Mary Williams
John Williams 42
William Lee 25


There is a Bolton Ave in Liverpool now -- google maps satellite view shows it as being mainly carpark, right across from the Lime St station.

Combermere St is a little tiny dead end near Wavertree Park that looks kind of industrial.


The only other possibles in 1881:


6 Ward St, Liverpool:
Sarah Moorhouse 52
Joseph Moorhouse 16
James Moorhouse 14
William M. Williams 7 - grandson

The initial does look like M. And I don't see a Williams-Moorhouse marriage, so he could be the son of an unmarried daughter.


and

Name: William Williams
Age: 7
Estimated Birth Year: abt 1874
Relation: Inmate
Where born: Salford, Lancashire, England
The Industrial Schools Swinton Lancashire


Neither looks too likely.

Oh, and father's name Richard fits with your William's son William Richard Williams excellently.

Was WRW your William's first son?

Looks like the best match for that Mary in1881:


Name: Mary Richardson
Age: 5
Estimated Birth Year: abt 1876
Relation: Daughter
Father's Name: James
Mother's Name: Catherine
Where born: Liverpool, Lancashire, England

Street address: 7 Court 5 House Clive St
Civil Parish: Toxteth Park

James Richardson 40 - Dock Laborer, born Scotland
Catherine Richardson 45
Jane Richardson 10
Elizabeth Richardson 8
Mary Richardson 5


But 1901 ...