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Michelle,

Had a look at 1891 census using Bridget - I think I found her with one daughter Mary E - living at 91 Fairfax Street, Bowling, Bradford would presume that the other two daughters had married. What do you think? I looked on 1871 and only found one Bridget but she was unmarried so don't think it was her. The 1901 census never showed her either so looked at deaths and thought maybe the one I found for 1895 could be her? Still didn't have any joy finding 1st James or 2nd James.

Pat

Pat

Possible 1891 for Bridget and Mary Ellen Durkin lists Bridget birthplace as County Mays-Ireland

1891 England Census
about Bridget Durkin
Name: Bridget Durkin
Age: 47
Estimated Birth Year: abt 1844
Relation: Head
Gender: Female
Where born: County Mays, Ireland

Civil Parish: Bowling
Ecclesiastical parish: St Luke
County/Island: Yorkshire
Country: England

Street address:

Occupation:

Condition as to marriage:

Education:

Employment status: View Image

Registration district: Bradford
Sub registration district: Bowling
ED, institution, or vessel: 3
Neighbors: View others on page
Household Members: Name Age
Bridget Durkin 47
Mary E Durkin 23
Mary Hoban 43

1891 England Census
about Mary E Durkin
Name: Mary E Durkin
Age: 23
Estimated Birth Year: abt 1868
Relation: Daughter
Mother's Name: Bridget
Gender: Female
Where born: Bradford, Yorkshire, England

Civil Parish: Bowling
Ecclesiastical parish: St Luke
County/Island: Yorkshire
Country: England

Street address:

Occupation:

Condition as to marriage:

Education:

Employment status: View Image

Registration district: Bradford
Sub registration district: Bowling
ED, institution, or vessel: 3
Neighbors: View others on page
Household Members: Name Age
Bridget Durkin 47
Mary E Durkin 23
Mary Hoban 43

1891 England Census
about Mary Hoban
Name: Mary Hoban
Age: 43
Estimated Birth Year: abt 1848
Relation: Sister
Gender: Female
Where born: Ireland

Civil Parish: Bowling
Ecclesiastical parish: St Luke
County/Island: Yorkshire
Country: England

Street address:

Occupation:

Condition as to marriage:

Education:

Employment status: View Image

Registration district: Bradford
Sub registration district: Bowling
ED, institution, or vessel: 3
Neighbors: View others on page
Household Members: Name Age
Bridget Durkin 47
Mary E Durkin 23
Mary Hoban 43

Bridget a Charwoman and a Widow
Mary a Wollen Drawer
Mary-sister of Bridget sadly a Widow so Hoban is not Bridgets maiden name.She was a Wollen Millhand

Address 91 Fairfase Street
Mary

Pat

Possible birth record for Ann Durkin

England & Wales, FreeBMD Birth Index: 1837-1983
about Ann Durkin
Name: Ann Durkin
Year of Registration: 1862
Quarter of Registration: Jan-Feb-Mar
District: Bolton
County: Greater Manchester, Lancashire
Volume: 8c
Page: 299 (click to see others on page)

No luck on 1871 as yet.

Pat

Thats very interesting and i had seen this census when i was looking through the census's!I will be back online later tonight and will do some work on the 1901 family i found and the 1881 you have listed-looking back to see if they on the 1871.

Michelle

Michelle,

Just back in from work, but have to go out between 6-8 tonight so when I get back about 8ish will log on again.

Remember I said I thought 2nd James mother was called Bridget well this is where I found it. In my file on my grandmother. So according to this 2nd James does have siblings - Annie (which i knew but had forgotten as I put the info on grandmother away to work on another day), Margaret & Mary E. I'm sorry had I remembered this when I first spoke with you it would have helped.

This is the Annie Durkin that married John McGlenn - 2nd James' sister. I found this when I looked for info on my grandmother. This is also where I got the name Bridget from - She would be James mother - Yes? and she was a widow.
Therefore could be my Durkin's because on 2nd James marriage cert it states his father (John) is dead in 1882. But still doesn't give me any info on either of the James'

1881 Census:

Ann Durkin
Age: 20
Estimated Birth Year: abt 1861
Relation: Daughter
Mother's Name: Bridget
Gender: Female
Where born: Bolton, Lancashire, England

Civil Parish: Horton In Bradford
County/Island: Yorkshire
Country: England

Street address: 56 Duncan St
Education:

Employment status: View Image
Occupation: Worsted Weaver

Registration district: Bradford
Sub registration district: Horton
ED, institution, or vessel: 48
Neighbors: View others on page
Household Members: Name Age
Ann Durkin 20 b Bolton, Lancs
Bridget Durkin 40 wid b Ireland
Margaret Durkin 16 b Yorks, Leeds
Mary E. Durkin 13 b Yorks, Bradford
James Gillfoyle 21 lodger.

Source Citation: Class: RG11; Piece: 4460; Folio: 132; Page: 17; Line: ; GSU roll: 1342067.

Your theory on "Dorkin" would explain where the 1st James was in 1901 wouldn't it - abolutely mind boggling!!! I don't know how you do it, whilst I was typint this up I even started thinking that the siblings belonged the the 2nd James. I have to type and think of everything quite slowly or I'm off on a tangent!!!

Pat

Hi Michelle,

Many thanks for the 1871 Census readings for the George Barlow family, which reveals that Richard Barlow had been born in Manchester.

Thanks also for the advice, as to what might have been the cause for the possible lack of issue for the first five years of the marriage, if it eventually turns out there was no children.

Your generosity and expertise is applauded and very much appreciated by this corespondent; who also wishes You and those you care for, a very happy and peaceful Christmas.

James

Pat

1901 Continued...

1901 England Census
about Annie Dorking
Name: Annie Dorking
Age: 8
Estimated Birth Year: abt 1893
Relation: Boarder
Gender: Female
Where born: Bradford

Civil Parish: Egton
Ecclesiastical parish: Egton St Hilda
County/Island: Yorkshire
Country: England

Street address:

Occupation:

Condition as to marriage:

Education:

Employment status: View Image

Registration district: Whitby
Sub registration district: Egton
ED, institution, or vessel: 4
Neighbors: View others on page
Household schedule number: 8
Household Members: Name Age
Thomas Pierson 50
Louisa Pierson 38
James Dorking 13
Mary E Dorking 11
Annie Dorking 8

Annie Louisa Dorking 1899 Jan-Feb-Mar Billericay Essex
View Record

Annie Dorking 1883 Jan-Feb-Mar Bethnal Green Greater London, London, Middlesex
View Record

Annie Dorking 1862 Jan-Feb-Mar Orsett Essex
View Record

Annie L Dorking 1915 Apr-May-Jun Billericay Essex
View Record

Charlotte Lilian Dorking 1896 Jul-Aug-Sep Hull (1854 Onw) Yorkshire - East Riding, Humberside
View Record

Annie Durkin 1892 Jul-Aug-Sep Bradford Yorkshire - West Riding, West Yorkshire
View Record

Annie Dargan 1892 Apr-May-Jun Knaresborough Yorkshire - West Riding
View Record

Annie Durkin 1892 Oct-Nov-Dec Keighley (1837-1946) Yorkshire - West Riding
View Record

Annie Durkin 1894 Jan-Feb-Mar Middlesbrough (1875-1968) Yorkshire - North Riding
View Record

Annie Durkin 1894 Jul-Aug-Sep Leeds (1837-1929) Yorkshire - West Riding

Look on the list an Annie 1892???

This maybe nothing??i just found it odd.Of course these children may belong to a totally different family?I will tonight have a look back and see if i can find them on the 1891,although the birthplaces their are no births listed???

Michelle

Pat

Im off to work soon myself but thought i would post this for you to look at later.
I noticed this 1901 yesterday and maybe nothing!but thought i should show you.So many errors with names on census records both transcript and also errors by the census takers themselves who misheard a name and spelt it wrong.Thinking along the 2nd line of thought i wondered about this record.I have looked for births of all 3 of these children and they don't exsist???I will show you....but what is strange there were Durkin births in this name around the same birthyears of these 3 names and all Bradford.They are lodging in a house.

I will show you each child and births around the year they were born and them on the census.

1901 England Census
about James Dorking
Name: James Dorking
Age: 13
Estimated Birth Year: abt 1888
Relation: Boarder
Gender: Male
Where born: Bradford

Civil Parish: Egton
Ecclesiastical parish: Egton St Hilda
County/Island: Yorkshire
Country: England

Street address:

Occupation:

Condition as to marriage:

Education:

Employment status: View Image

Registration district: Whitby
Sub registration district: Egton
ED, institution, or vessel: 4
Neighbors: View others on page
Household schedule number: 8
Household Members: Name Age
Thomas Pierson 50
Louisa Pierson 38
James Dorking 13
Mary E Dorking 11
Annie Dorking 8

Name Year of Registration Quarter of Registration District County View Image Order Record
View Record

James William Dorking 1892 Oct-Nov-Dec Poplar (To 1965) Greater London, London, Middlesex
View Record

William James Dorking 1905 Apr-May-Jun Billericay Essex
View Record

James G Dorking 1913 Apr-May-Jun Billericay Essex
View Record

James Stephen Dorking 1872 Jan-Feb-Mar Walsall Staffordshire
View Record

James T Dorking 1913 Apr-May-Jun Maldon (1837-1972) Essex
View Record

James Durkin 1888 Jan-Feb-Mar Bradford Yorkshire - West Riding, West Yorkshire
View Record

James Durkin 1888 Oct-Nov-Dec Bradford Yorkshire - West Riding, West Yorkshire
View Record

James Durkin 1887 Oct-Nov-Dec Bradford Yorkshire - West Riding, West Yorkshire
View Record

James Durkin 1887 Oct-Nov-Dec Bradford Yorkshire - West Riding, West Yorkshire
View Record

Gerald James P Durkin 1888 Apr-May-Jun Bradford Yorkshire - West Riding, West Yorkshire

See no James Dorking???but your James is in this list.

1901 England Census
about Mary E Dorking
Name: Mary E Dorking
Age: 11
Estimated Birth Year: abt 1890
Relation: Boarder
Gender: Female
Where born: Bradford

Civil Parish: Egton
Ecclesiastical parish: Egton St Hilda
County/Island: Yorkshire
Country: England

Street address:

Occupation:

Condition as to marriage:

Education:

Employment status: View Image

Registration district: Whitby
Sub registration district: Egton
ED, institution, or vessel: 4
Neighbors: View others on page
Household schedule number: 8
Household Members: Name Age
Thomas Pierson 50
Louisa Pierson 38
James Dorking 13
Mary E Dorking 11
Annie Dorking 8

Name Year of Registration Quarter of Registration District County View Image Order Record
View Record

Mary Anne E Dorking 1887 Apr-May-Jun Wandsworth Greater London, London, Surrey
View Record

Ellen Julia Dorking 1895 Apr-May-Jun Orsett Essex
View Record

Ada Mary Dorking 1880 Apr-May-Jun Wandsworth Greater London, London, Surrey
View Record

Mary Dorking 1906 Oct-Nov-Dec Sunderland Durham, Tyne and Wear
View Record

Lilian Mary A Dorking 1879 Oct-Nov-Dec Wandsworth Greater London, London, Surrey
View Record

Mary Alice Dorking 1864 Apr-May-Jun Islington Greater London, London, Middlesex
View Record

Mary Ann Dorking 1849 Jan-Feb-Mar Orsett Essex
View Record

Mary Ann Dorking 1849 Oct-Nov-Dec Orsett Essex
View Record

Mary Ann Dorking 1864 Apr-May-Jun Mildenhall Suffolk
View Record

Mary Ann Dorking 1864 Apr-May-Jun Chelmsford Essex

Again none???

but look

England & Wales, FreeBMD Birth Index: 1837-1983
about Mary Ellen Durkin
Name: Mary Ellen Durkin
Year of Registration: 1889
Quarter of Registration: Oct-Nov-Dec
District: Bradford
County: Yorkshire - West Riding, West Yorkshire
Volume: 9b
Page: 152 (click to see others on page)

Continued...

Michelle,

Spoke with Bradford records when i got grandfathers birth cert because I found 2 for same quarter. When they confirmed one date was 21/12 I knew that was the correct one.

James (son) birth cert = 21/12/1887 (my father had told my brother the 21/12 as it was the same day my nephew was born) so know that its the right one. This James married in 1911 and his marr. cert to Margaret McGlenn is where I found out that they were in fact 1st cousins. Her mother was a Durkin before she married, and would you believe called Annie. There's so many of them I think I'd forgotten that this Annie is 2nd James' sister. Hope that makes sense.

Looking back at census 1881 I followed for my grandmother (Margaret McGlenn's mother ) the home address was 56 duncan st - same one as is on the marriage certificate of 2nd James so I'm pretty sure it's correct.

I think the inter-marriage so early on hasn't helped this situation because of they all have the same names it makes it more confusion as I get muddled with whom I'm talking about.

I have to come off line now or I'll be late for work will be back on tonight.

Pat

Pat

Ive been thinking.....if they married in 1882 seems strange a child wasn't born till 1887??Also the marriage cert had Baker for occupation.Are you certain you have the right marriage cert?I know you have prob based this on the James 1887 on the 1891 census and the family he was with.Sorry to throw doubt at your already confused mind....i was just wondering.As their is a marriage in 1886 Bradford for a James Durkin.Have you the birth cert for James 1887?As their are 2 listed for same quarter whether this is an error and is the same James??

England & Wales, FreeBMD Birth Index: 1837-1983
about James Durkin
Name: James Durkin
Year of Registration: 1887
Quarter of Registration: Oct-Nov-Dec
District: Bradford
County: Yorkshire - West Riding, West Yorkshire
Volume: 9b
Page: 118 (click to see others on page)

England & Wales, FreeBMD Birth Index: 1837-1983
about James Durkin
Name: James Durkin
Year of Registration: 1887
Quarter of Registration: Oct-Nov-Dec
District: Bradford
County: Yorkshire - West Riding, West Yorkshire
Volume: 9b
Page: 87 (click to see others on page)

Just racking my brains trying to help.

Michelle

Michelle,

Yes I have his sons marriage cert. and one of the witnesses is A. Durkin. I wish my brain worked along the same lines as yours, I'd never even though of that.

Pat

Michelle,

Your an absolute brick- in the nicest possible way that is!! These older Durkins are so illusive!! I have to get ready for work now but was getting so frustrated I've thought I might upgrad on Ancestry to see if there's anything on there that might help from the Irish sections.

Will let you know how I get on later.

Many thanks again

Pat

ps Have a good Christmas

Pat

Just a thought i wonder if they had any other children other than James?Have you got James's(son) marriage cert?Where father is listed as deceased.Who were the witness's?
Also i noticed this birth wonder if this is James and Annie's daughter?1st child was named James after James so i wonder if Annie below is theirs?

England & Wales, FreeBMD Birth Index: 1837-1983
about Annie Durkin
Name: Annie Durkin
Year of Registration: 1892
Quarter of Registration: Jul-Aug-Sep
District: Bradford
County: Yorkshire - West Riding, West Yorkshire
Volume: 9b
Page: 103 (click to see others on page)

Pat

Really sorry to hear that Pat.Its easy for me to look deaths up on the site i have so here are a few possibles.There is always the point that he may have gone back to Ireland Pat?

England & Wales, FreeBMD Death Index: 1837-1983
about James Durkin
Name: James Durkin
Estimated Birth Year: abt 1863
Year of Registration: 1907
Quarter of Registration: Jul-Aug-Sep
Age at Death: 44
District: Middlesbrough (1875-1968)
County: Yorkshire - North Riding
Volume: 9d
Page: 315 (click to see others on page)

England & Wales, FreeBMD Death Index: 1837-1983
about James Durkin
Name: James Durkin
Estimated Birth Year: abt 1866
Year of Registration: 1895
Quarter of Registration: Oct-Nov-Dec
Age at Death: 29
District: Middlesbrough (1875-1968)
County: Yorkshire - North Riding
Volume: 9d
Page: 374 (click to see others on page)

England & Wales, FreeBMD Death Index: 1837-1983
about James Durkin
Name: James Durkin
Estimated Birth Year: abt 1865
Year of Registration: 1890
Quarter of Registration: Jan-Feb-Mar
Age at Death: 25
District: Leeds (1837-1929)
County: Yorkshire - West Riding
Volume: 9b
Page: 370 (click to see others on page)

England & Wales, FreeBMD Death Index: 1837-1983
about James Durkin
Name: James Durkin
Estimated Birth Year: abt 1862
Year of Registration: 1898
Quarter of Registration: Oct-Nov-Dec
Age at Death: 36
District: Sheffield
County: South Yorkshire, Yorkshire - West Riding
Volume: 9c
Page: 307 (click to see others on page)

England & Wales, FreeBMD Death Index: 1837-1983
about James Durkin
Name: James Durkin
Estimated Birth Year: abt 1860
Year of Registration: 1893
Quarter of Registration: Jul-Aug-Sep
Age at Death: 33
District: Pocklington (1837-1937)
County: Yorkshire - East Riding
Volume: 9d
Page: 61 (click to see others on page)

These are the Yorkshire possibles but he could have moved or even left the country.
Try a few Irish online sites.We have not seen them on the 1901 so maybe they did return to Ireland and son James came back when he was old enough to England.

Michelle

Michelle,

Would you believe, just had a telephone call from Bradford records office - not the cert I'm looking for. Informant was his mother in law - and her name wasn't "Mullaney". So dead end. The only other durkin death I found was in 1910 and he was 70, making him born in 1840ish. I think I'll take another look at census and double check and then perhaps look at deaths from 1887 when his son was born. Probably take me a while, but can't think of any other way!!

Pat

Hi Pat

Thats a pleasure!Hope the death cert is the right one and please let me know.
Hope you have a great Christmas!

Michelle

Hi Michelle,

Just a short note to say a really big THANK YOUU for all your help, I have requested death cert as discussed and you never know it may well help to get me a bit further down the right track.

Regards

Pat

Tracy

Do you know if Mark had a middle name?I found this marriage record

England & Wales, FreeBMD Marriage Index: 1837-1983
about Mark Edward Sheppard
Name: Mark Edward Sheppard
Year of Registration: 1908
Quarter of Registration: Oct-Nov-Dec
District: Bristol
County: Avon, Gloucestershire
Volume: 6a
Page: 195 (click to see others on page)

Isabella Maud A Fry 1908 Bristol Avon, Gloucestershire
View Record
Herbert William Lovell 1908 Bristol Avon, Gloucestershire
View Record
Mark Edward Sheppard 1908 Bristol Avon, Gloucestershire
View Record
May Wheeler 1908 Bristol Avon, Gloucestershire


Did see a birth with mother's maiden name Wheeler so poss that this Mark married May.
You would need to obtain cert if you think this is him to confirm both father's name and which woman he married.

Other than this 1 is a later 1 in 1925 in Gloucestershire area

England & Wales, FreeBMD Marriage Index: 1837-1983
about Mark Sheppard
Name: Mark Sheppard
Year of Registration: 1925
Quarter of Registration: Jul-Aug-Sep
Spouse's Surname: Underwood
District: Bristol
County: Avon, Gloucestershire
Volume: 6a
Page: 506 (click to see others on page)

Not alot marriages showing and these are the only 2 in 1900's!Between 1905-1915 only the 1908 record.

With regards to death unless you have an approx year of death it would be too larger search.Ancestry is indexed till 1920's then after that i would have to search quarter by quarter and year by year which would take many hours.
Do you have any further info on him?

Michelle

Nettie

1901 Continued....

1901 England Census
about William Monkman
Name: William Monkman
Age: 1
Estimated Birth Year: abt 1900
Relation: Son
Father's Name: John Thos
Mother's Name: Elizabeth E
Gender: Male
Where born: South Shields, Durham, England

Civil Parish: South Shields
Ecclesiastical parish: St Mary
County/Island: Durham
Country: England

Street address:

Occupation:

Condition as to marriage:

Education:

Employment status: View Image

Registration district: South Shields
Sub registration district: South Shields
ED, institution, or vessel: 68
Neighbors: View others on page
Household schedule number: 93
Household Members: Name Age
John Thos Monkman 43
Elizabeth E Monkman 35
Minnie Monkman 8
Albert Monkman 5
George Monkman 3
William Monkman 1

John a Mariner Donkeyman
Incase you need a definition of Donkeyman:

"The "Donkeyman" is the crew member whose job is to deal with the operation and maintenance of any and all assorted machinery other than the ship's main engines." while other information says his duties would include assisting with the main engines.

While at sea donkey engines could be used to operate the anchor windlass and bilge pumps. He could also be called on to perform the duties of Fireman or Greaser. And from what I can find, it was not unusual for the Donkeyman to do watch duties, as you suggested. A "jack of all trades" as one might say. On some ships the "Donkey engine/boiler" could be used to supply emergency propulsion. Running steam engines was a dangerous job and that is where his real knowledge and skills was of great importance, even though there was down time while at sea.

Address looks like 18 Frances Street

Hope info is useful to you.

Michelle : )

Hi michelle - thanks ever so much - this is what i thought, i think i may have a match - i'm going to try and get the marraige cert. Thanks a million xx caroline