Find Ancestors

Kats

Birthyears were not remembered as they are today.We celebrate our birthdays fill frequent forms in to state our birthyear and obviously normally remember are ages!!However,things were very different then.When you think of some families with 10 children,its not surprising ages were often wrong!The 1841 was the least accurate census for ages and ages were often up to 5 years out.I never really worry too much about birthyears on census records.Remember they are listed as about,and should be taken as so.

I agree i think the children were with Grandparents while mother's were working.This is very common.

Michelle

Hi Michelle, Re William Lilley lookup 11/02, have now had time to digest all the info. Couple of questions - Margaret is listed on 1841 born 1832, however on 1851 census she is listed as born same as her sister Charlotte 1839. Could this be a mistranscription? Have also been looking at James & John (Grandchildren) a bit more closely. To start with I was expecting to see William having an older brother since the boys both have the Lilley surname. Now looks as though the are not brothers but cousins. Have searched Family Search and can see James christened 19/04/51 no father listed and the mother is Margaret. Also found John, christened 14/11/53 again only mother listed who is Mary, no father listed. I was trying to work out why Mary wasn't listed on 1851 census, conclusion is she was 16/17 years old and probably away working. Margaret at the time of 51 census would be heavily pregnant and back at home until her child was born. My thoughts are that Samuel and Mary snr were left to bring up the boys while the girls returned to work and by 1861 all their other children would have been sent out to work, probably in service. Any thoughts?
Finally, I know it a woman's privilege to lie about their age but Mary Snr date of birth ranges between 1807 - 1811!!

Gary

RE BARGE

Good luck!Let me know once you get the birth cert and i will see if i can find that marriage.Been wondering...spent ages looking and nothing!

Michelle

Hi Michelle

So it was me all the time!!! :-)

I am on the case re the certs. Many Thanks.

Gary (Barge Research)

Gary

yes i am researching for 2 Gary's 1 for Barge the other for Redman!

Just posted you the birth references of some of the children of Thomas and Annie.

Michelle

Gary

Re the children of Thomas Barge and Annie;

Here are some birth references.Walworth is in the Southwark district

England & Wales, FreeBMD Birth Index, 1837-1915
about Sidney Thomas Barge
Name: Sidney Thomas Barge
Year of Registration: 1883
Quarter of Registration: Jul-Aug-Sep
District: St Saviour Southwark
County: London, Surrey
Volume: 1d
Page: 132 (click to see others on page)

England & Wales, FreeBMD Birth Index, 1837-1915
about Elizabeth Annie Barge
Name: Elizabeth Annie Barge
Year of Registration: 1884
Quarter of Registration: Oct-Nov-Dec
District: St Saviour Southwark
County: London, Surrey
Volume: 1d
Page: 101 (click to see others on page)

Can't see the others at mo.So get 1 of the above certs and this will show Annie's maiden name.Then i might be able to find the marriage...this will then help with locating the right Thomas on early census records cos we will have the father's name from the marriage cert.

Hi Michelle

Are you doing research for two Gary's as you have really flummoxed me with the Higham/Redman marriage details etc.

Your last question to me was to ask which Tom Barge I was looking for. The one with wife Annie or wife Elizabeth. This is the copy & paste of my reply. If I am missing something and am being really stupid then I apologise.

"Hi Michelle

You have confused me a little with the Elizabeth reference. Have I missed something in one of your replies? However, I am sure that you have the correct Mary Barge details so the Tom Barge we are interested in would be with wife Annie.

EDITED: Sorry Michelle, just seen the Elizabeth reference in an earlier reply. I totally missed it for some reason. I am still sure it is Annie we are after.

EDITED AGAIN: The marriage certificate of Mary Barge has Tom's profession as 'Grounder' which ties in with Leather Grinder (Currier).

Regards

Gary"

Gary

Here is the 1871 you wanted

1871 England Census
about James Radman
Name: James Radman
Age: 34
Estimated Birth Year: abt 1837
Relation: Head
Gender: Male
Where born: Preston, Lancashire, England
Civil Parish: West Derby
Ecclesiastical parish: St John
County/Island: Lancashire
Country: England
Street address:

Occupation:

Condition as to marriage:

Disability: View Image
Registration district: West Derby
Sub registration district: West Derby
ED, institution, or vessel: 59
Neighbors: View others on page
Household schedule number: 33
Household Members: Name Age
James Radman 34
Chas Fredk Radman 10
Ernest William Radman 7
Ann Helena Radman 5
William Radman 47
Eleanor Ann Radman 20

1871 England Census
about Chas Fredk Radman
Name: Chas Fredk Radman
Age: 10
Estimated Birth Year: abt 1861
Relation: Son
Father's Name: James
Gender: Male
Where born: Liverpool, Lancashire, England
Civil Parish: West Derby
Ecclesiastical parish: St John
County/Island: Lancashire
Country: England
Street address:

Occupation:

Condition as to marriage:

Disability: View Image
Registration district: West Derby
Sub registration district: West Derby
ED, institution, or vessel: 59
Neighbors: View others on page
Household schedule number: 33
Household Members: Name Age
James Radman 34
Chas Fredk Radman 10
Ernest William Radman 7
Ann Helena Radman 5
William Radman 47
Eleanor Ann Radman 20

1871 England Census
about Ernest William Radman
Name: Ernest William Radman
Age: 7
Estimated Birth Year: abt 1864
Relation: Son
Father's Name: James
Gender: Male
Where born: Liverpool, Lancashire, England
Civil Parish: West Derby
Ecclesiastical parish: St John
County/Island: Lancashire
Country: England
Street address:

Occupation:

Condition as to marriage:

Disability: View Image
Registration district: West Derby
Sub registration district: West Derby
ED, institution, or vessel: 59
Neighbors: View others on page
Household schedule number: 33
Household Members: Name Age
James Radman 34
Chas Fredk Radman 10
Ernest William Radman 7
Ann Helena Radman 5
William Radman 47
Eleanor Ann Radman 20

1871 England Census
about Ann Helena Radman
Name: Ann Helena Radman
Age: 5
Estimated Birth Year: abt 1866
Relation: Daughter
Father's Name: James
Gender: Female
Where born: Liverpool, Lancashire, England
Civil Parish: West Derby
Ecclesiastical parish: St John
County/Island: Lancashire
Country: England
Street address:

Occupation:

Condition as to marriage:

Disability: View Image
Registration district: West Derby
Sub registration district: West Derby
ED, institution, or vessel: 59
Neighbors: View others on page
Household schedule number: 33
Household Members: Name Age
James Radman 34
Chas Fredk Radman 10
Ernest William Radman 7
Ann Helena Radman 5
William Radman 47
Eleanor Ann Radman 20

1871 England Census
about William Radman
Name: William Radman
Age: 47
Estimated Birth Year: abt 1824
Relation: Brother
Gender: Male
Where born: Kenlall Withralabeth
Civil Parish: West Derby
Ecclesiastical parish: St John
County/Island: Lancashire
Country: England
Street address:

Occupation:

Condition as to marriage:

Disability: View Image
Registration district: West Derby
Sub registration district: West Derby
ED, institution, or vessel: 59
Neighbors: View others on page
Household schedule number: 33
Household Members: Name Age
James Radman 34
Chas Fredk Radman 10
Ernest William Radman 7
Ann Helena Radman 5
William Radman 47
Eleanor Ann Radman 20

1871 England Census
about Eleanor Ann Radman
Name: Eleanor Ann Radman
Age: 20
Estimated Birth Year: abt 1851
Relation: Niece
Gender: Female
Where born: Liverpool, Lancashire, England
Civil Parish: West Derby
Ecclesiastical parish: St John
County/Island: Lancashire
Country: England
Street address:

Occupation:

Condition as to marriage:

Disability: View Image
Registration district: West Derby
Sub registration district: West Derby
ED, institution, or vessel: 59
Neighbors: View others on page
Household schedule number: 33
Household Members: Name Age
James Radman 34
Chas Fredk Radman 10
Ernest William Radman 7
Ann Helena Radman 5
William Radman 47
Eleanor Ann Radman 20

James a Hatter and a Widower
William a Unmarried Joiner

Address 6 Lilly Vale


Clearly Redman on the record.So mistranscribed.

England & Wales, FreeBMD Death Index: 1837-1983
about Elizabeth Redman
Name: Elizabeth Redman
Estimated Birth Year: abt 1835
Year of Registration: 1870
Quarter of Registration: Apr-May-Jun
Age at Death: 35
District: West Derby
County: Lancashire
Volume: 8b
Page: 347

Gary

Here is the marriage

Elizabeth Higham 1856 Liverpool (1837-1934) Lancashire

James Redman 1856 Liverpool (1837-1934) Lancashire

England & Wales, FreeBMD Marriage Index: 1837-1983
about James Redman
Name: James Redman
Year of Registration: 1856
Quarter of Registration: Jul-Aug-Sep
District: Liverpool (1837-1934)
County: Lancashire
Volume: 8b
Page: 209 (click to see others on page)

This will interest you appears Elizabeth Higham sister was married to a Redman also!Here is the 1851 of Elizabeth to show you i have the correct 1-note birthplace.

1851 England Census
about Robert Redman
Name: Robert Redman
Age: 25
Estimated Birth Year: abt 1826
Relation: Head
Spouse's Name: Rebecca
Gender: Male
Where born: Hasskester, Westmorland, England

Civil Parish: West Derby
County/Island: Lancashire
Country: England

Street address:

Occupation:

Condition as to marriage:

Disability: View Image

Registration district: West Derby
Sub registration district: West Derby
ED, institution, or vessel: 1a
Neighbors: View others on page
Household schedule number: 59
Household Members: Name Age
Robert Redman 25
Rebecca Redman 24
E T Redman 22 Mo
Elizabeth Higham 16
M A Pratt 23
Mary Farell 21

1851 England Census
about Rebecca Redman
Name: Rebecca Redman
Age: 24
Estimated Birth Year: abt 1827
Relation: Wife
Spouse's Name: Robert
Gender: Female
Where born: Storrs, Westmorland, England

Civil Parish: West Derby
County/Island: Lancashire
Country: England

Street address:

Occupation:

Condition as to marriage:

Disability: View Image

Registration district: West Derby
Sub registration district: West Derby
ED, institution, or vessel: 1a
Neighbors: View others on page
Household schedule number: 59
Household Members: Name Age
Robert Redman 25
Rebecca Redman 24
E T Redman 22 Mo
Elizabeth Higham 16
M A Pratt 23
Mary Farell 21

1851 England Census
about E T Redman
Name: E T Redman
Age: 22 Mo
Estimated Birth Year: abt 1849
Relation: Daughter
Father's Name: Robert
Mother's Name: Rebecca
Gender: Female
Where born: Liverpool, Lancashire, England

Civil Parish: West Derby
County/Island: Lancashire
Country: England

Street address:

Occupation:

Condition as to marriage:

Disability: View Image

Registration district: West Derby
Sub registration district: West Derby
ED, institution, or vessel: 1a
Neighbors: View others on page
Household schedule number: 59
Household Members: Name Age
Robert Redman 25
Rebecca Redman 24
E T Redman 22 Mo
Elizabeth Higham 16
M A Pratt 23
Mary Farell 21

1851 England Census
about Elizabeth Higham
Name: Elizabeth Higham
Age: 16
Estimated Birth Year: abt 1835
Relation: Sister-in-law
Gender: Female
Where born: Storrs, Westmorland, England

Civil Parish: West Derby
County/Island: Lancashire
Country: England

Street address:

Occupation:

Condition as to marriage:

Disability: View Image

Registration district: West Derby
Sub registration district: West Derby
ED, institution, or vessel: 1a
Neighbors: View others on page
Household schedule number: 59
Household Members: Name Age
Robert Redman 25
Rebecca Redman 24
E T Redman 22 Mo
Elizabeth Higham 16
M A Pratt 23
Mary Farell 21

1851 England Census
about M A Pratt
Name: M A Pratt
Age: 23
Estimated Birth Year: abt 1828
Relation: Sister-in-law
Gender: Female
Where born: Liverpool, Lancashire, England

Civil Parish: West Derby
County/Island: Lancashire
Country: England

Street address:

Occupation:

Condition as to marriage:

Disability: View Image

Registration district: West Derby
Sub registration district: West Derby
ED, institution, or vessel: 1a
Neighbors: View others on page
Household schedule number: 59
Household Members: Name Age
Robert Redman 25
Rebecca Redman 24
E T Redman 22 Mo
Elizabeth Higham 16
M A Pratt 23
Mary Farell 21

1851 England Census
about Mary Farell
Name: Mary Farell
Age: 21
Estimated Birth Year: abt 1830
Relation: Servant
Gender: Female
Where born: Ireland

Civil Parish: West Derby
County/Island: Lancashire
Country: England

Street address:

Occupation:

Condition as to marriage:

Disability: View Image

Registration district: West Derby
Sub registration district: West Derby
ED, institution, or vessel: 1a
Neighbors: View others on page
Household schedule number: 59
Household Members: Name Age
Robert Redman 25
Rebecca Redman 24
E T Redman 22 Mo
Elizabeth Higham 16
M A Pratt 23
Mary Farell 21

Robert a Hatter
Mary a House Servant

Address hard to read.

Hi Michelle

You have confused me a little with the Elizabeth reference. Have I missed something in one of your replies? However, I am sure that you have the correct Mary Barge details so the Tom Barge we are interested in would be with wife Annie.

EDITED: Sorry Michelle, just seen the Elizabeth reference in an earlier reply. I totally missed it for some reason. I am still sure it is Annie we are after.

EDITED AGAIN: The marriage certificate of Mary Barge has Tom's profession as 'Grounder' which ties in with Leather Grinder (Currier).

Regards

Gary

Gary

1861 England Census
about James Redman
Name: James Redman
Age: 25
Estimated Birth Year: abt 1836
Relation: Head
Spouse's Name: Elizabeth
Gender: Male
Where born: Preston, Lancashire, England

Civil Parish: West Derby
Ecclesiastical parish: St John
County/Island: Lancashire
Country: England

Street address:

Occupation:

Condition as to marriage: View Image

Registration district: West Derby
Sub registration district: West Derby
ED, institution, or vessel: 25f
Neighbors: View others on page
Household schedule number: 80
Household Members: Name Age
James Redman 25
Elizabeth Redman 27

1861 England Census
about Elizabeth Redman
Name: Elizabeth Redman
Age: 27
Estimated Birth Year: abt 1834
Relation: Wife
Spouse's Name: James
Gender: Female
Where born: Westmorland, England

Civil Parish: West Derby
Ecclesiastical parish: St John
County/Island: Lancashire
Country: England

Street address:

Occupation:

Condition as to marriage: View Image

Registration district: West Derby
Sub registration district: West Derby
ED, institution, or vessel: 25f
Neighbors: View others on page
Household schedule number: 80
Household Members: Name Age
James Redman 25
Elizabeth Redman 27


James a Hatter

Address 17 Kinsington

Gary


I will take a look later for you.I'm round my mother-in-laws at moment.Can you let me know though the Thomas with wife Annie...is this the 1 you are after?Or is it the 1 with wife Elizabeth?

Michelle

Thank you very much for you advice and suggestions its much appreciated

I'll give them a go.

many thanks
Sharon

Hi Michelle

Thanks for completing the Barge search for me. Sadly I have been unable to find the birth indexes for any of Tom Barge's children so I cannot order the certs. Any suggestions?

Regards

Gary

Sharon

John does not seem to be showing on the 1841???So there are a few districts on the 1841 where records are missing so i am wondering if he was in 1 of these areas.The 1841 will not list district of birth and you cannot be certain where he was living in 1841 is the area he was born in as many years had passed.

John states Fulham in the1851,1861 as birthplace.

Here are contact numbers of Fulham

Hammersmith and Fulham Archives and Local History Centre
The Lilla Huset
191 Talgarth Road
London W6 8BJ
Tel: 020 8741 5159 / 020 8753 3850
Fax: 020 8741 4882
Email: [email protected]
Website: www.lbhf.gov.uk

or the city of London

Please use this contact list to find the relevant department or the a-z to locate the service you require. The main switchboard number is 020 7606 3030. Email [email protected]
Our address
City of London, Guildhall, PO Box 270, London EC2P 2EJ.
Maps showing how to find us.



To contact a Member please see Committee information.

Or you could visit a local Family Search place and search through the records.There are alot of John Edwards.Maybe an idea to search for the marriage of the parents 1st and see whether the vicar had listed father's names on the parish records.

If you get 1 of the youngest children's birth cert you will see mother's maiden name and searching for the marriage would be your starting point.Then you may get more info to help with searching for his birth.


Good luck!

Michelle

Elizabeth

I am not finding any time to look at your request again.I am just too busy at moment and i have looked alot over past few days and just not seeing anything.

I suggest you post on the Records Office Board all the details you have plus the 1901 census and marriage details..including everything...ages,witnesses father's name and occuaption and see what many heads can do.They can have time to focus on yours which i just don't have at mo.Especially with new requests coming through.

Michelle

Gary

Looking at the census records i can't be certain who the father of Thomas is.This is my findings....

There are 2 people on the census records showing a 1856-8 birthyear and birthplace Yeovil.A Thomas Barge and a Tom Barge.Here is the 1881 of the 2 of them.On the 1881 both listed as Thomas

1881 England Census
about Thomas Barge
Name: Thomas Barge
Age: 24
Estimated Birth Year: abt 1857
Relation: Head
Spouse's Name: Annie
Gender: Male
Where born: Yeovil, Somerset, England

Civil Parish: Lambeth
County/Island: London
Country: England

Street address: 10 Union St
Condition as to marriage: Married
Education:

Employment status: View Image
Occupation: Leather Grinder (Currier)

Registration district: Lambeth
Sub registration district: Lambeth Church Second
ED, institution, or vessel: 19
Neighbors: View others on page
Household Members: Name Age
Thomas Barge 24
Annie Barge 25

1881 England Census
about Thomas Barge
Name: Thomas Barge
Age: 24
Estimated Birth Year: abt 1857
Relation: Son
Father's Name: Frederick S.
Mother's Name: Louisa
Gender: Male
Where born: Yeovil, Somerset, England

Civil Parish: Yeovil
County/Island: Somerset
Country: England

Street address: 52 Vicarage St
Condition as to marriage: Married
Education:

Employment status: View Image
Occupation: Carpenter

Registration district: Yeovil
Sub registration district: Yeovil
ED, institution, or vessel: 3
Neighbors: View others on page
Household Members: Name Age
Frederick S. Barge 61
Louisa Barge 52
Henrietta Barge 29
Thomas Barge 24
Amanda Barge 21
Harry Barge 17
Annie Barge 13
Kate Barge 10
Elizabeth Barge 30
Tom Barge 4
Sydney C. Barge 1

Now i think the 2nd Thomas is this 1

England & Wales, FreeBMD Birth Index, 1837-1915
about Thomas Squib Barge
Name: Thomas Squib Barge
Year of Registration: 1855
Quarter of Registration: Jan-Feb-Mar
District: Yeovil
County: Somerset
Volume: 5c
Page: 362 (click to see others on page)

And this is where is gets very confusing.The early census records i believe show Frederick father on the 2nd record and Louisa and children as Squibb and not Barge???I will show you the 1871 so you can compare to the 1881 and see.

1871 England Census
about Thomas Squibb
Name: Thomas Squibb
Age: 16
Estimated Birth Year: abt 1855
Relation: Son
Father's Name: Fredk
Mother's Name: Louisa
Gender: Male
Where born: Yeovil, Somerset, England
Civil Parish: Yeovil
Ecclesiastical parish: Hendford Holy Trinity
Town: Yeovil
County/Island: Somerset
Country: England
Street address:

Occupation:

Condition as to marriage:

Disability: View Image
Registration district: Yeovil
Sub registration district: Yeovil
ED, institution, or vessel: 5
Neighbors: View others on page
Household schedule number: 2
Household Members: Name Age
Fredk Squibb 48
Louisa Squibb 42
Henrietta Squibb 19
Thomas Squibb 16
Amanda Squibb 12
Sidney Squibb 10
Harry Squibb 7
Annie Squibb 3
Kate Squibb 5 months

Identical so this is the 1881 Thomas with family.I cannot give you a reason at mo why they were Squibb and Barge next census??Louisa was Smith surname so wasn't to do with her.

here is the same Thomas on the 1891

1891 England Census
about Thos Barge
Name: Thos Barge
Age: 34
Estimated Birth Year: abt 1857
Relation: Head
Spouse's Name: Elizth
Gender: Male
Where born: Yeovil, Dorset, England

Civil Parish: Yeovil
Ecclesiastical parish: Holy Trinity Hendford
Town: Yeovil
County/Island: Somerset
Country: England

Street address:

Occupation:

Condition as to marriage:

Education:

Employment status: View Image

Registration district: Yeovil
Sub registration district: Yeovil
ED, institution, or vessel: 6
Neighbors: View others on page
Household Members: Name Age
Thos Barge 34
Elizth Barge 37
Tom Barge 14
Sidney C Barge 11
Annie Barge 7
Mabel Barge 8/12


With regards to the 1st Thomas with Annie wife??i can't see a marriage at mo??Have you got his marriage?there is only 1 Thomas Barge birth record around that time the 1 is listed earlier.

There is only a Dorset Thomas Barge.It is of course poss that his birth wasn't registered,it was not compulsory until 1875.

i can't see him in the format of Thomas Barge in early census records.I wonder if his middle name was Thomas and he was going by another name on earlier census records?

So all in all most strange!Have you got any of the birth certs of the children they had?

Michelle

Hi Michelle

Sorry to hear about your daughter. I hope she has a speedy recovery.

Thanks for the Barge info to date. If you can get past Tom to his parents that would be fabulous.

Regards

Gary

Gary

Will do more tomorrow.I am really tired tonight,my daughter has got chicken pox and i have been out to work tonight and i have sitting here nearly falling zzzz!!!So i am off to bed now and will finish your lookup tomorrow.

Michelle

Gary

1901 Continued....

1901 England Census
about Mary Barge
Name: Mary Barge
Age: 13
Estimated Birth Year: abt 1888
Relation: Daughter
Father's Name: Thomas
Mother's Name: Annie
Gender: Female
Where born: Walworth

Civil Parish: Bermondsey
Ecclesiastical parish: St Mary Magdalene Bermondsey
County/Island: London
Country: England

Street address:

Occupation:

Condition as to marriage:

Education:

Employment status: View Image

Registration district: St Olave Southwark
Sub registration district: Bermondsey
ED, institution, or vessel: 20
Neighbors: View others on page
Household schedule number: 271
Household Members: Name Age
Thomas Barge 42
Annie Barge 39
Sidney Barge 18
Lizzie Barge 19
Ellen Barge 15
Mary Barge 13
Robert Matthews 18

1901 England Census
about Robert Matthews
Name: Robert Matthews
Age: 18
Estimated Birth Year: abt 1883
Relation: Lodger
Where born: Walworth

Civil Parish: Bermondsey
Ecclesiastical parish: St Mary Magdalene Bermondsey
County/Island: London
Country: England

Street address:

Occupation:

Condition as to marriage:

Education:

Employment status: View Image

Registration district: St Olave Southwark
Sub registration district: Bermondsey
ED, institution, or vessel: 20
Neighbors: View others on page
Household schedule number: 271
Household Members: Name Age
Thomas Barge 42
Annie Barge 39
Sidney Barge 18
Lizzie Barge 19
Ellen Barge 15
Mary Barge 13
Robert Matthews 18

Thomas a Leather Dresser
Annie a Glove Maker
Can't make out Sidney's occupation as there are crossings on over this image.Maybe Leather Bleacher
Robert a Umbrella Maker

9 Paulin Street



here is the 1881....will have to go back to the 1891 cant see it at 1st glance.

1881 England Census
about Thomas Barge
Name: Thomas Barge
Age: 24
Estimated Birth Year: abt 1857
Relation: Head
Spouse's Name: Annie
Gender: Male
Where born: Yeovil, Somerset, England

Civil Parish: Lambeth
County/Island: London
Country: England

Street address: 10 Union St
Condition as to marriage: Married
Education:

Employment status: View Image
Occupation: Leather Grinder (Currier)

Registration district: Lambeth
Sub registration district: Lambeth Church Second
ED, institution, or vessel: 19
Neighbors: View others on page
Household Members: Name Age
Thomas Barge 24
Annie Barge 25

1881 England Census
about Annie Barge
Name: Annie Barge
Age: 25
Estimated Birth Year: abt 1856
Relation: Wife
Spouse's Name: Thomas
Gender: Female
Where born: Sterminster Newton, Dorset, England

Civil Parish: Lambeth
County/Island: London
Country: England

Street address: 10 Union St
Condition as to marriage: Married
Education:

Employment status: View Image

Registration district: Lambeth
Sub registration district: Lambeth Church Second
ED, institution, or vessel: 19
Neighbors: View others on page
Household Members: Name Age
Thomas Barge 24
Annie Barge 25