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Hi Michelle,
Wow, don't know how you find the time but if you could squeeze me in I would be really greatful. I am looking for William Frederick Witten married in 1843 to Eliza Burrey and living in Islington, his father is James and the Witten's are all from East London. Never seen it spelt any different but can't rule it out. I have looked but cannot find a record of James or William on any census, hoping you have better luck.
Many thanks
Maureen
ps if it helps William worked as a clerk in the stock exchange and James was a carpenter. x

David

I have the 1891 for the family if you require it?With regards to passenger lists i only have access to records of International incoming...ie Aus and USA,China etc and not for Ireland,sorry.
Let me know re 1891.Try Inis he does Irish Lookups or at least used to?on the Records Office Board.Although i believe that Ireland was owned by England around this time and incoming did not have to be listed unless they were from foreign ports.

Useful sites to you

http://www.dwyerclan.com/Research_Centre.htm

http://genealogy.about.com/cs/ireland/a/irish_genealogy.htm

http://www.irishfamilyresearch.co.uk/

http://www.genuki.org.uk/

Best of luck to you.

Michelle

Michelle

thanks for the sources, i'll check them out and yes could you please post the 1891 info you have as I seem to be drawing a blank except for the 1901 census

dave

Elaine

Have you checked the 1911 for them?Might be a good idea.As up to 1911 maiden names were not placed on birth records.

http://www.1911census.co.uk/

Also this is their marriage

England & Wales, FreeBMD Marriage Index: 1837-1983
about Arthur William Fitton
Name: Arthur William Fitton
Year of Registration: 1909
Quarter of Registration: Jul-Aug-Sep
District: Oldham
County: Greater Manchester, Lancashire
Volume: 8d
Page: 1197 (click to see others on page)

Arthur William Fitton 1909 Oldham Greater Manchester, Lancashire

Sarah Ann Stott 1909 Oldham Greater Manchester, Lancashire

Looking at 1911-1915 no children showing with those 2 surnames.Do you know for certain her surname was Stott?Just wondered if it was mistranscribed?

There are 2 later birth records coming up for 1920 and 1925 but i have discounted them as their was a marriage in the same area as the 2 birth records in 1919 between a Fitton and Stott.I think the next step is to look at the 1911.

There is a death in the great war...maybe a poss??

UK, Soldiers Died in the Great War, 1914-1919
about Arthur Fitton
Name: Arthur Fitton
Residence: Rochdale, Lancs
Death Date: 21 Mar 1918
Rank: Private
Regiment: Lancashire Fusiliers
Battalion: 1/6th Battalion.
Number: 241923
Type of Casualty: Killed in action
Theater of War: Aldershot

Well hope that has helped a little.

Michelle

David

Here is the 1891

1891 England Census
about Thomas Dwyer
Name: Thomas Dwyer
Age: 24
Estimated Birth Year: abt 1867
Relation: Head
Spouse's Name: Mary
Gender: Male
Where born: Ireland

Civil Parish: Horwich
Ecclesiastical parish: Holy Trinity
Town: Horwich
County/Island: Lancashire
Country: England

Street address:

Occupation:

Condition as to marriage:

Education:

Employment status: View Image

Registration district: Bolton
Sub registration district: Horwich
ED, institution, or vessel: 6
Neighbors: View others on page
Household Members: Name Age
Thomas Dwyer 24
Mary Dwyer 28
Joseph Dwyer 4
Francis Dwyer 2
Michael Flynn 28
Marten Hunt 19
Patrick Marson 21
Hugh Gallogher 26

1891 England Census
about Mary Dwyer
Name: Mary Dwyer
Age: 28
Estimated Birth Year: abt 1863
Relation: Wife
Spouse's Name: Thomas
Gender: Female
Where born: Ireland

Civil Parish: Horwich
Ecclesiastical parish: Holy Trinity
Town: Horwich
County/Island: Lancashire
Country: England

Street address:

Occupation:

Condition as to marriage:

Education:

Employment status: View Image

Registration district: Bolton
Sub registration district: Horwich
ED, institution, or vessel: 6
Neighbors: View others on page
Household Members: Name Age
Thomas Dwyer 24
Mary Dwyer 28
Joseph Dwyer 4
Francis Dwyer 2
Michael Flynn 28
Marten Hunt 19
Patrick Marson 21
Hugh Gallogher 26

1891 England Census
about Joseph Dwyer
Name: Joseph Dwyer
Age: 4
Estimated Birth Year: abt 1887
Relation: Son
Father's Name: Thomas
Mother's Name: Mary
Gender: Male
Where born: Ireland

Civil Parish: Horwich
Ecclesiastical parish: Holy Trinity
Town: Horwich
County/Island: Lancashire
Country: England

Street address:

Occupation:

Condition as to marriage:

Education:

Employment status: View Image

Registration district: Bolton
Sub registration district: Horwich
ED, institution, or vessel: 6
Neighbors: View others on page
Household Members: Name Age
Thomas Dwyer 24
Mary Dwyer 28
Joseph Dwyer 4
Francis Dwyer 2
Michael Flynn 28
Marten Hunt 19
Patrick Marson 21
Hugh Gallogher 26

1891 England Census
about Francis Dwyer
Name: Francis Dwyer
Age: 2
Estimated Birth Year: abt 1889
Relation: Son
Father's Name: Thomas
Mother's Name: Mary
Gender: Male
Where born: Lancaster, England

Civil Parish: Horwich
Ecclesiastical parish: Holy Trinity
Town: Horwich
County/Island: Lancashire
Country: England

Street address:

Occupation:

Condition as to marriage:

Education:

Employment status: View Image

Registration district: Bolton
Sub registration district: Horwich
ED, institution, or vessel: 6
Neighbors: View others on page
Household Members: Name Age
Thomas Dwyer 24
Mary Dwyer 28
Joseph Dwyer 4
Francis Dwyer 2
Michael Flynn 28
Marten Hunt 19
Patrick Marson 21
Hugh Gallogher 26

1891 England Census
about Michael Flynn
Name: Michael Flynn
Age: 28
Estimated Birth Year: abt 1863
Relation: Lodger
Gender: Male
Where born: Ireland

Civil Parish: Horwich
Ecclesiastical parish: Holy Trinity
Town: Horwich
County/Island: Lancashire
Country: England

Street address:

Occupation:

Condition as to marriage:

Education:

Employment status: View Image

Registration district: Bolton
Sub registration district: Horwich
ED, institution, or vessel: 6
Neighbors: View others on page
Household Members: Name Age
Thomas Dwyer 24
Mary Dwyer 28
Joseph Dwyer 4
Francis Dwyer 2
Michael Flynn 28
Marten Hunt 19
Patrick Marson 21
Hugh Gallogher 26

1891 England Census
about Marten Hunt
Name: Marten Hunt
Age: 19
Estimated Birth Year: abt 1872
Relation: Lodger
Gender: Male
Where born: Ireland

Civil Parish: Horwich
Ecclesiastical parish: Holy Trinity
Town: Horwich
County/Island: Lancashire
Country: England

Street address:

Occupation:

Condition as to marriage:

Education:

Employment status: View Image

Registration district: Bolton
Sub registration district: Horwich
ED, institution, or vessel: 6
Neighbors: View others on page
Household Members: Name Age
Thomas Dwyer 24
Mary Dwyer 28
Joseph Dwyer 4
Francis Dwyer 2
Michael Flynn 28
Marten Hunt 19
Patrick Marson 21
Hugh Gallogher 26

Continue....

David


1891 Continued...

1891 England Census
about Patrick Marson
Name: Patrick Marson
Age: 21
Estimated Birth Year: abt 1870
Relation: Lodger
Gender: Male
Where born: Ireland

Civil Parish: Horwich
Ecclesiastical parish: Holy Trinity
Town: Horwich
County/Island: Lancashire
Country: England

Street address:

Occupation:

Condition as to marriage:

Education:

Employment status: View Image

Registration district: Bolton
Sub registration district: Horwich
ED, institution, or vessel: 6
Neighbors: View others on page
Household Members: Name Age
Thomas Dwyer 24
Mary Dwyer 28
Joseph Dwyer 4
Francis Dwyer 2
Michael Flynn 28
Marten Hunt 19
Patrick Marson 21
Hugh Gallogher 26

1891 England Census
about Hugh Gallogher
Name: Hugh Gallogher
Age: 26
Estimated Birth Year: abt 1865
Relation: Lodger
Gender: Male
Where born: Ireland

Civil Parish: Horwich
Ecclesiastical parish: Holy Trinity
Town: Horwich
County/Island: Lancashire
Country: England

Street address:

Occupation:

Condition as to marriage:

Education:

Employment status: View Image

Registration district: Bolton
Sub registration district: Horwich
ED, institution, or vessel: 6
Neighbors: View others on page
Household Members: Name Age
Thomas Dwyer 24
Mary Dwyer 28
Joseph Dwyer 4
Francis Dwyer 2
Michael Flynn 28
Marten Hunt 19
Patrick Marson 21
Hugh Gallogher 26

writing is not good on this census...sorry David.

Thomas looks like Navvy and this is crossed though and Plate is written next to it.
All the lodgers were the same occupation also.

The address again not good writing.Its definitely no 26 at a guess Taylor Street??

Maureen

Have you birthyears or places for James and William?Also how do you know his occupation was this from marriage cert?If so what were the witness names please and address at marriage?Thanks

Michelle

Hello Michelle
Is there any chance you could find any info of parents/siblings of Anna Eliza Coram b1862 Chudleigh Knighton, Newton Abbott, Devon ? She married Reuben Roberts in 1884 in N Abbott.
Thank you
Sandra

Thanks Michelle for the info on Woodward. Hope you turn something up on William Gray.

Julie

Michelle

thanks for the info. on the 1891 census.

About the men being navvies ties in with the Horwich area as they started work there building the locomotive works in 1884 and in excess of 1,000,000 tons of muck was moved by hand.

dave

Sandra

Hi i have found Anna i believe under a transcript error.Will list the 1861 1st of her parents and siblings so you can see that their correct surname was Coram.

1861 England Census
about George Coram
Name: George Coram
Age: 37
Estimated Birth Year: abt 1824
Relation: Head
Spouse's Name: Mary Ann
Gender: Male
Where born: North Tawton, Devon, England

Civil Parish: Hennock
County/Island: Devon
Country: England

Street address:

Occupation:

Condition as to marriage: View Image

Registration district: Newton Abbot
Sub registration district: Chudleigh
ED, institution, or vessel: 9c
Neighbors: View others on page
Household schedule number: 29
Household Members: Name Age
George Coram 37
Mary Ann Coram 33
Emma Coram 14
George Coram 8
James Coram 5
Ellen Coram 1

1861 England Census
about Mary Ann Coram
Name: Mary Ann Coram
Age: 33
Estimated Birth Year: abt 1828
Relation: Wife
Spouse's Name: George
Gender: Female
Where born: Hennock, Devon, England

Civil Parish: Hennock
County/Island: Devon
Country: England

Street address:

Occupation:

Condition as to marriage: View Image

Registration district: Newton Abbot
Sub registration district: Chudleigh
ED, institution, or vessel: 9c
Neighbors: View others on page
Household schedule number: 29
Household Members: Name Age
George Coram 37
Mary Ann Coram 33
Emma Coram 14
George Coram 8
James Coram 5
Ellen Coram 1

1861 England Census
about Emma Coram
Name: Emma Coram
Age: 14
Estimated Birth Year: abt 1847
Relation: Daughter
Father's Name: George
Mother's Name: Mary Ann
Gender: Female
Where born: Hennock, Devon, England

Civil Parish: Hennock
County/Island: Devon
Country: England

Street address:

Occupation:

Condition as to marriage: View Image

Registration district: Newton Abbot
Sub registration district: Chudleigh
ED, institution, or vessel: 9c
Neighbors: View others on page
Household schedule number: 29
Household Members: Name Age
George Coram 37
Mary Ann Coram 33
Emma Coram 14
George Coram 8
James Coram 5
Ellen Coram 1

1861 England Census
about George Coram
Name: George Coram
Age: 8
Estimated Birth Year: abt 1853
Relation: Son
Father's Name: George
Mother's Name: Mary Ann
Gender: Male
Where born: Hennock, Devon, England

Civil Parish: Hennock
County/Island: Devon
Country: England

Street address:

Occupation:

Condition as to marriage: View Image

Registration district: Newton Abbot
Sub registration district: Chudleigh
ED, institution, or vessel: 9c
Neighbors: View others on page
Household schedule number: 29
Household Members: Name Age
George Coram 37
Mary Ann Coram 33
Emma Coram 14
George Coram 8
James Coram 5
Ellen Coram 1

1861 England Census
about James Coram
Name: James Coram
Age: 5
Estimated Birth Year: abt 1856
Relation: Son
Father's Name: George
Mother's Name: Mary Ann
Gender: Male
Where born: Hennock, Devon, England

Civil Parish: Hennock
County/Island: Devon
Country: England

Street address:

Occupation:

Condition as to marriage: View Image

Registration district: Newton Abbot
Sub registration district: Chudleigh
ED, institution, or vessel: 9c
Neighbors: View others on page
Household schedule number: 29
Household Members: Name Age
George Coram 37
Mary Ann Coram 33
Emma Coram 14
George Coram 8
James Coram 5
Ellen Coram 1

1861 England Census
about Ellen Coram
Name: Ellen Coram
Age: 1
Estimated Birth Year: abt 1860
Relation: Daughter
Father's Name: George
Mother's Name: Mary Ann
Gender: Female
Where born: Hennock, Devon, England

Civil Parish: Hennock
County/Island: Devon
Country: England

Street address:

Occupation:

Condition as to marriage: View Image

Registration district: Newton Abbot
Sub registration district: Chudleigh
ED, institution, or vessel: 9c
Neighbors: View others on page
Household schedule number: 29
Household Members: Name Age
George Coram 37
Mary Ann Coram 33
Emma Coram 14
George Coram 8
James Coram 5
Ellen Coram 1

George a Clay Cutter

Address Village Of Knighton

Will post 1871 next

Sandra

1871 Census remember this is mistranscribed...writing on this census image was not good!!

1871 England Census
about George Urham
Name: George Urham
Age: 48
Estimated Birth Year: abt 1823
Relation: Head
Spouse's Name: Mary Ann
Gender: Male
Where born: North Tawton, Devon, England
Civil Parish: Hennock
Ecclesiastical parish: Chudleigh Knighton
County/Island: Devon
Country: England
Street address:

Occupation:

Condition as to marriage:

Disability: View Image
Registration district: Newton Abbot
Sub registration district: Chudleigh
ED, institution, or vessel: 10
Neighbors: View others on page
Household schedule number: 45
Household Members: Name Age
George Urham 48
Mary Ann Urham 41
Emma Urham 24
Ellen Urham 12
Anna Eliza Urham 8
John Urham 6

1871 England Census
about Mary Ann Urham
Name: Mary Ann Urham
Age: 41
Estimated Birth Year: abt 1830
Relation: Wife
Spouse's Name: George
Gender: Female
Where born: Hennock, Devon, England
Civil Parish: Hennock
Ecclesiastical parish: Chudleigh Knighton
County/Island: Devon
Country: England
Street address:

Occupation:

Condition as to marriage:

Disability: View Image
Registration district: Newton Abbot
Sub registration district: Chudleigh
ED, institution, or vessel: 10
Neighbors: View others on page
Household schedule number: 45
Household Members: Name Age
George Urham 48
Mary Ann Urham 41
Emma Urham 24
Ellen Urham 12
Anna Eliza Urham 8
John Urham 6

1871 England Census
about Emma Urham
Name: Emma Urham
Age: 24
Estimated Birth Year: abt 1847
Relation: Daughter
Father's Name: George
Mother's Name: Mary Ann
Gender: Female
Where born: Hennock, Devon, England
Civil Parish: Hennock
Ecclesiastical parish: Chudleigh Knighton
County/Island: Devon
Country: England
Street address:

Occupation:

Condition as to marriage:

Disability: View Image
Registration district: Newton Abbot
Sub registration district: Chudleigh
ED, institution, or vessel: 10
Neighbors: View others on page
Household schedule number: 45
Household Members: Name Age
George Urham 48
Mary Ann Urham 41
Emma Urham 24
Ellen Urham 12
Anna Eliza Urham 8
John Urham 6

1871 England Census
about Ellen Urham
Name: Ellen Urham
Age: 12
Estimated Birth Year: abt 1859
Relation: Daughter
Father's Name: George
Mother's Name: Mary Ann
Gender: Female
Where born: Hennock, Devon, England
Civil Parish: Hennock
Ecclesiastical parish: Chudleigh Knighton
County/Island: Devon
Country: England
Street address:

Occupation:

Condition as to marriage:

Disability: View Image
Registration district: Newton Abbot
Sub registration district: Chudleigh
ED, institution, or vessel: 10
Neighbors: View others on page
Household schedule number: 45
Household Members: Name Age
George Urham 48
Mary Ann Urham 41
Emma Urham 24
Ellen Urham 12
Anna Eliza Urham 8
John Urham 6

1871 England Census
about Anna Eliza Urham
Name: Anna Eliza Urham
Age: 8
Estimated Birth Year: abt 1863
Relation: Daughter
Father's Name: George
Mother's Name: Mary Ann
Gender: Female
Where born: Hennock, Devon, England
Civil Parish: Hennock
Ecclesiastical parish: Chudleigh Knighton
County/Island: Devon
Country: England
Street address:

Occupation:

Condition as to marriage:

Disability: View Image
Registration district: Newton Abbot
Sub registration district: Chudleigh
ED, institution, or vessel: 10
Neighbors: View others on page
Household schedule number: 45
Household Members: Name Age
George Urham 48
Mary Ann Urham 41
Emma Urham 24
Ellen Urham 12
Anna Eliza Urham 8
John Urham 6

1871 England Census
about John Urham
Name: John Urham
Age: 6
Estimated Birth Year: abt 1865
Relation: Son
Father's Name: George
Mother's Name: Mary Ann
Gender: Male
Where born: Hennock, Devon, England
Civil Parish: Hennock
Ecclesiastical parish: Chudleigh Knighton
County/Island: Devon
Country: England
Street address:

Occupation:

Condition as to marriage:

Disability: View Image
Registration district: Newton Abbot
Sub registration district: Chudleigh
ED, institution, or vessel: 10
Neighbors: View others on page
Household schedule number: 45
Household Members: Name Age
George Urham 48
Mary Ann Urham 41
Emma Urham 24
Ellen Urham 12
Anna Eliza Urham 8
John Urham 6

George a Clay Miner

Address Knighton Village

Sandra

Marriage of Parents of Anna Eliza

George Coram 1846 Newton Abbot Devon

Mary Anne Moist 1846 Newton Abbot Devon

England & Wales, FreeBMD Marriage Index: 1837-1983
about George Coram
Name: George Coram
Year of Registration: 1846
Quarter of Registration: Jul-Aug-Sep
District: Newton Abbot
County: Devon
Volume: 10
Page: 225 (click to see others on page)

Sandra

Death of father

England & Wales, FreeBMD Death Index: 1837-1983
about George Coram
Name: George Coram
Estimated Birth Year: abt 1822
Year of Registration: 1877
Quarter of Registration: Jan-Feb-Mar
Age at Death: 55
District: Newton Abbot
County: Devon
Volume: 5b
Page: 88 (click to see others on page)

1881 showing Mary Ann now as a Widow

1881 England Census
about Mary A. Coram
Name: Mary A. Coram
Age: 53
Estimated Birth Year: abt 1828
Relation: Head
Gender: Female
Where born: Hennock, Devon, England

Civil Parish: Hennock
County/Island: Devon
Country: England

Street address: K Village
Condition as to marriage: Windower (Widower)
Education:

Employment status: View Image

Registration district: Newton Abbot
Sub registration district: Chudleigh
ED, institution, or vessel: 12
Neighbors: View others on page
Household Members: Name Age
Mary A. Coram 53
Emma Coram 34
James Coram 25

1881 England Census
about Emma Coram
Name: Emma Coram
Age: 34
Estimated Birth Year: abt 1847
Relation: Daughter
Mother's Name: Mary A.
Gender: Female
Where born: Hennock, Devon, England

Civil Parish: Hennock
County/Island: Devon
Country: England

Street address: K Village
Education:

Employment status: View Image

Registration district: Newton Abbot
Sub registration district: Chudleigh
ED, institution, or vessel: 12
Neighbors: View others on page
Household Members: Name Age
Mary A. Coram 53
Emma Coram 34
James Coram 25

1881 England Census
about James Coram
Name: James Coram
Age: 25
Estimated Birth Year: abt 1856
Relation: Son
Mother's Name: Mary A.
Gender: Male
Where born: Hennock, Devon, England

Civil Parish: Hennock
County/Island: Devon
Country: England

Street address: K Village
Education:

Employment status: View Image
Occupation: Lab Brick Yard

Registration district: Newton Abbot
Sub registration district: Chudleigh
ED, institution, or vessel: 12
Neighbors: View others on page
Household Members: Name Age
Mary A. Coram 53
Emma Coram 34
James Coram 25

Hope info helps

Julie

Re William Gray nothing certain sorry.I suggest you contact the office where the marriage parish records are.The 1819 marriage may have details of who is father was.This would help in narrowing him down.The problem is the 1841 was not the most accurate of census records.Other idea maybe to get his death record so see whether his age is listed on that.

Most offices are happy to help.

Michelle

Hi Michelle
Thanks once again for looking for me , i took alook at 1911 census before i got in touch with you Arthur was living with his parents Abraham & hannah , in Bolton, he is with his wife Sarah Ann married for 2 years, no children on there, thanks for your help ...
best wishes
elainex

Hi Michelle
Thank you so much for ALL your information, I didn`t even think of checking for transcript errors.
Very much appreciated
Sandra

Michelle,
I have got to William Frederick Witten working back from my grandfather etc. he had a son Henry James born 27-8- 1843 in Hoxton New Town, Shoreditch, there address at that time was: 9 East Road, Hoxton New Town. William's marriage certificate's information is as follows:-
Married June 11th 1843 St. George in the East, I believe this is in Tower Hamlets.
Age: Full, Eliza's age: minor
Rank/profession: merchandile clerk
Address: 1 Yorke Place, Islington, Eliza's address: Charlotte Street, Shoreditch
Father's Names: James Witten - Carpenter, Charles Burrey, Laceman?
Witnesses: ? Cooke? and Hannah Hathway Burrey
I have questioned marked a couple of things that were quite hard to read.
I believe they would have stayed in London as his son Henry James was also a clerk in the stock exchange.
Can find no record of either James or William's birth but they must both have been born before 1830's.
Your help is very much appreciated.
Maureen

Hi Michelle

i've hit a wall with my GGGgrandad Hugh McSorley.

i've found him on my GGgrandad's Thomas McSorley's [b:1827] marriage cert on the 22 may 1853 as deceased and in the 1841 census living in wigan with his wife Bridget and family and lastly on an IGI record being married to a Bridget McLonin on 2nd May 1836 at All Saints Church in Wigan.

None of these records indicate where he or his wife Bridget were born. One person suggested that Bridget was his second wife and her maiden name was McHarin.

There is also an IGI record of a James MacSorley marrying a Margaret Marsh on 5th May 1794 in Wigan. I think these maybe my GGGGgrandad and mother.

I've been given a list of James's children [not confirmed by me but apparently some links through James being on marriage certs and cross references of the children being present at the deaths of some of the others]. The names are:
1. Hugh McSorley b: 1801 [age 40 on 1841 census] GGGgrandad
2. Mary Mcsorley b: circa 1801 [unchecked]
3. Joseph McSorley b: circa 1805 d: 28th Dec 1866 [unchecked]
4. Susannah McSorley b: circa 1806 [unchecked]
5. Peter McSorley b: Circa 1808 d: 1878 [unchecked]
6. Thomas McSorley b: circa 1817 d: 1849 [unchecked]

sorry it's so long winded, hope you can help me out

thanks
dave

Hello Michelle

I have a new one for you as I have hit a complete brick wall!, this is what I do have

1911 census Herbert Wyles 35 born peterborough northants, family Mary Ann wife mary daughter Stephen son, living enfield middlesex, telegraph linesman

1901 census Herbert Wyles boarding Islington, London Telegraph linesman.

1891 census Herbert Wyles living with Father Joseph, Mother Mary (not sure if bIrth mother?or by marrage)brothers John 13 and Stephen 5

I have been unable to trace any of them before this date, I have Josephs death dec1910 and birth 6th dec 1841 his mother is listed as mary wyles, he is listed as Joseph whithead wyles father blank.

I also have tryed to trace Herberts wife in the census and again have drawn blank, she is Mary Ann Stanford born 12 july 1874 st neots, beds, cambs parents william stanford and sarah stanford (jordan) again no luck with any census before 1891

I would be grateful again! if you have any clues where I can look.
Thanks for help with my other dead end I did contact the local history e-mail that you gave me but have had no reply yet, so will keep trying,
thanks.
Tina

sorry I have just realised I have Herberts Birth certificate!
born 23 march 1876 peterborough to mother Mary Wyles formerly church father joseph masons laborer. I have tryed to trace the church family too and no luck with them either!